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to think that children from low income families should have access to the best schools

(190 Posts)
ReallyTired Wed 29-Oct-14 10:24:42

some schools have more than their fair share of erm.. Challenging children. Middle class parents can get their children a better peer group by buying an expensive house, praying or going private. Children from low income families are trapped in poor schools as their parents cannot move as easily.

I think that all state schools should prioritise 15% of places for fsm children so that poor children can have a chance of going to the best comprensive. Before I get jumped on most fsm children are NOT problem children. However they are more likely to educated at poor quality school. Children who get excluded should be given a place at the best school possible even if that means going over 30 in the class.

Children from wealthy families suffer less from attending a weak school. Middle class children can help to raise the aspirations of their classmates.

Perhaps private schools should take a few difficult children as a condition of their charitable status.

SunnaStrangeInTheNeighbourhood Wed 29-Oct-14 10:28:55


There is so much wrong with what you've posted I don't know where to start.

Middle class children have behavioural problems too, you know.

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:30:18

If everyone is equal then the only fair way is a lottery.

Why discriminate against children because their parents earn too much?
Priority for the poor means promoting benefit Britain.

Pupil Premium (PP) is a poor indicator of poverty as it lasts for 6 years. I know people who are PP qualified and now earn £100k a year. They were freelancers and in between contracts they claimed FSM.

This is how you qualify if well off:

SaucyJackOLantern Wed 29-Oct-14 10:31:08

What about children of the working poor?

whatsthatcomingoverthehill Wed 29-Oct-14 10:33:34

To be charitable I would say that the OP is arguing that schools should be more socially integrated between different socio-economic classes. It's a reasonable position to take, but there are significant logistical and other reasons why it would be very difficult to implement.

sr123 Wed 29-Oct-14 10:33:37

Who are the challenging children?

LadyLuck10 Wed 29-Oct-14 10:33:50

Yabvu, you've made a lot of assumptions.

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:34:15

What about them? Why are they different to to working rich? Why do they deserve priority? Are you saying they are like "untouchables" in India and need priority places?

angelos02 Wed 29-Oct-14 10:35:33

Children who get excluded should be given a place at the best school possible even if that means going over 30 in the class

Is this a wind up? That is surely rewarding bad behaviour? Excluded children shouldn't be in mainstream education as it is as it only takes one disruptive child to ruin the education of others.

Also, higher earning parents pay a hell of a lot more tax so why shouldn't their children have access to a better eductation?

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:36:10

How about 15% for Asians, 10% for African people, 5% for green eyed people, 5% for ginger hair?

redskybynight Wed 29-Oct-14 10:37:15

Is this a large city specific problem? I live in a big town, the admissions rules are such that pretty much everyone goes to their catchment school, and the catchements are large and diverse. "Poor people" can afford houses in basically any catchment they choose.

A better solution to the problem (where it exists) is surely to make all schools equally good?

FrauHelga Wed 29-Oct-14 10:40:19

Children who get excluded should be prioritised over my children? so children who behave so badly they are asked to leave a school should have a place at a better school than my well behaved child?

If you live in a poor area, and want your child to go to a school out of that area because it's better (assuming your premise is correct, which I don't but for the sake of the argument) who is going to pay for the children to get there? Who is going to pay for the transport?

Define best school.

Why use FSM as the indicator? What about the working poor - their children won't get FSM.

There is just so much wrong in what you're saying. I need more coffee before I respond more. But YABU. Totally.

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:40:58

The Grammar Schools of King Edward VI in Birmingham discriminate against children and offer pupil premium children priority places even if they score much lower marks than other children in an 11+ tests. So selective schools reserve 1 class for lower scoring children and steal places from others.

This is called British Values and fair play.

They say tuition is not required and the tests identify natural ability, which Pupil Premium do not have! Really?

WooWooOwl Wed 29-Oct-14 10:41:51

The problem isn't that poor children end up at 'weak' schools.

The problem is that children from families with low achievement and aspiration end up together at weak schools.

The schools in areas of high deprivation already get more money than the leafy middle class schools, and there is very little difference in terms of quality of teachers. The difference comes because of the parenting, and the parents expectations of their children's achievement and more importantly, their behaviour.

We don't need to change the schools children go to, we need to change the attitude of parents. Otherwise you're just spreading the problem to more children.


babykonitsway Wed 29-Oct-14 10:44:17

All children have access to the same education. It's what that child and the parents do with that opportunity that matters.

angelos02 Wed 29-Oct-14 10:44:37

The difference comes because of the parenting, and the parents expectations of their children's achievement and more importantly, their behaviour

YY to this.

A good school is usually good because of the parents of the children that attend the school.

MorrisZapp Wed 29-Oct-14 10:44:38

Exactly what woowoo said. Theres no such thing as bad schools, only lack of aspiration.

YoooSkylaaaarrrrrggghh Wed 29-Oct-14 10:45:35

Ha ha! This is one of those wind up nearly had me there OP!

WooWooOwl Wed 29-Oct-14 10:47:17

Middle class children can help to raise the aspirations of their classmates.

I really object to this viewpoint. No child should be expected to do anything to raise the aspirations of other children. That is a parents job. Children go to school to learn and to obtain their own education, not to sort out the problems caused by other adults crap parenting.

Gileswithachainsaw Wed 29-Oct-14 10:47:28


Do you know how wealthy you would have to be to be able to afford houses in desirable areas whenever you need to.

What happens to everyone in between? Many on fsm are better off than those who don't receive them. What with then not actually having to feed their children so much and entitled to alot more in other benefits.

Oh and why the hell should a child be rewarded for ruining the education of all other kids in the class by being given a place at a better the detriment of the other kids yet again. Doesn't solve the issue if there are problems at home does it.

Mind you perhaps I should tell DD2 to be a cow in school when she starts so I can get her into the same school as her sister hmm

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:47:33

Schools are a law to themselves and are permitted to break the law with impunity. They can withdraw a school place as they feel like it, break the admissions code and refuse to offer an appeal as there is no consequence.

dreamingofsun Wed 29-Oct-14 10:48:10

so if i'm not happy with my kids current school i'll tell my kids to take a knife into class they get excluded and can then be sent to the best school in the area?

whats wrong with aiming for good schools for everyone, rather than just the poor?

Minikievs Wed 29-Oct-14 10:50:23

I had written a huge response to you, then realised that I can't even be bothered explaining to you just how idiotic your post is.

Megaload Wed 29-Oct-14 10:50:43

Do gooders and left wing politics and of course Gove (good job he has gone).

sr123 Wed 29-Oct-14 10:51:21

The most challenging children are frequently those with unmet additional needs. At my son's mainstream school that was certainly the case and he was one of them. He is now in very expensive specialist provision where his challenging behaviour has greatly reduced.

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