to be completely confused - pro/anti choice

[ScarletFever]

I have ALWAYS considered myself pro-choice

and then this - remember that person Josie who is on the daily mail a lot, with her nhs boob job etc who has made a career of annoying people... who said

"i would have aborted my baby if it meant i could go on Big Brother"

Right - so I was like "oh you evil cow" etc......, but then it was pointed out somewhere, if you are pro-choice, then what difference does it mean if her reason is crap?

So, how do i get my head around it being 'ok to abort a disabled child, or if you are not ready for children, or even it is the wrong time (re career) to have a child' but not ok to abort a child for a 'celebrity' reason??

[Trills]

To my mind being in favour of choice is about being in favour of choices being AVAILABLE.

Even if sometimes someone will make what I might consider a bad choice (very subjective), it is better for the choice to be available than for the choice to be unavailable.

[Wolfbasher]

You can feel disapproving about her choice, without making it illegal.

If everything I disapproved of was illegal, then we would live in a much better very limited world.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

Because if the child isn't wanted and won't be loved then that's worse.

Because if the mum doesnt care she may well not take care of herself and drink or do drugs resulting in a sick or deformed or disabled or addicted child which would require a life time of care and be hard to place in an adopted family.

Because abortion is better than.the neglect

[BaffledSomeMore]

There will always be cases that test a moral stance.
You could be against abortion but agree with tfmr in some cases.
Life isn't black and white sometimes you have to go with a majority feeling.

[MaidOfStars]

To my mind being in favour of choice is about being in favour of choices being AVAILABLE

This. You can be pro-choice and never consider abortion a choice you would make.

[Trills]

Technically "being offered the chance to go on Big Brother" is equivalent to "wrong time (re career) to have a child" for a person whose career is based on notoriety.

But I don't think we should discuss what is a good abortion vs a bad abortion.

I strongly believe that the person who is pregnant should be trusted to make the decision for themselves as to whether it is right for them to continue to be pregnant.

[SusanIvanova]

I see like free speech. You have the right to say what you want but I don't have to like our agree with it.

That silly cow has said a lot of stupid and harmful things about her child. When they grow up and read them she will reap what she sowed. But I really don't think she meant what she said, it's all an act to be in the papers.

[PercyHorse]

The alternative would be forcing someone to go through an unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.

[ScarletFever]

yup "Technically "being offered the chance to go on Big Brother" is equivalent to "wrong time (re career) to have a child" for a person whose career is based on notoriety."

this is exactly what i meant - i'm so annoyed, i thought i was pro-choice, not pro-choice if i agree with the reasons behind it

[specialsubject]

exactly - every child a wanted child and I think that an abortion is better than condemning a child to a life of misery.

assuming this person actually meant what she said - some people will say anything for publicity. Could also argue that if she did mean it, she's an unfit parent.

[WalkingInMemphis]

I don't think it's as black or white as 'just' being pro-life or pro-choice. I can't put myself in either camp tbh.

I would be completely pro-choice about someone aborting because they were raped. Or because of medical reasons. Or they were very young.

I wouldn't really be understanding of someone aborting because they didn't want stretch marks, or because they wanted to go on Big Brother. Or even if, just vaguely, it 'wasn't the right time'. And yes, i'd judge them (internally) to fuck.

So I suppose to many, i'm not pro-choice at all, when it has 'conditions' of acceptability attached.

But although on mn you'll only really get the extremes of either side, I don't think my pov/fence sitting, in the real world is that unusual. Personally, if I was raped, or if a pregnancy would put my life at risk, I would probably abort. But although I have NO desire for another baby right now, and the timing would be absolutely awful for various reasons, if I did fall pregnant I wouldn't abort - i'm married, settled, have 2dc, a decent enough job etc. In my mind, there is no 'justification' to abort, and I would hate myself forever if I did.

So, based on my own 'norms' and pov, I probably would/do judge people who fall outside of that. I think most people would/do, it's just not a popular truth.

[ghostyslovesheep]

I think because the key is it's HER choice - it may not be a choice you would make, it may not be a choice you would like, it may be a choice that you personally find morally questionable but it is nothing to do with you - it is her choice to make and her reasons are not relevant - it's legally her right to do so and you defend that right if you are pro choice

[DiaDuit]

So, how do i get my head around it being 'ok to abort a disabled child, or if you are not ready for children, or even it is the wrong time (re career) to have a child' but not ok to abort a child for a 'celebrity' reason??

You realise that it isnt your choice because it isnt your body and let others work through their own reasons.

Also- who says its ok for xy and z but not A?

[TillHammerZeit]

If a woman doesn't wish to be pregnant,that's reason enough IMHO.No woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy if she doesn't want to. The reasons are irrelevant.

[WalkingInMemphis]

Also- who says its ok for xy and z but not A?

Er...the op does, based on her opinions. That's what her post is about...how she feels. She's not suggesting her own opinions be considered as a new law.

[SaucyJackOLantern]

The way I see it is that any reason for not wanting to bring a child into the world and/or be a mother yourself is as good as any other. Not wanting a child right now is an explanation in itself.

And let's be honest..... the sort of people who can have abortions in what we might consider "callous" or irresponsible situations are quite possibly exactly the sort of people who shouldn't be having babies anyway.

[DiaDuit]

Er...the op does, based on her opinions.

Er... That's what i was asking to be clarified by the OP. whether it was just her opinion or something she felt the world was saying.

[WalkingInMemphis]

The way I see it is that any reason for not wanting to bring a child into the world and/or be a mother yourself is as good as any other

Although that's a commendable pov on paper, outside of mn I honestly don't think that this is reality. And I think that the number of people who genuinely, if they're honest with themselves, feel this way are probably very very rare.

Not wanting stretch marks as 'valid' a reason as a pregnancy being life threatening to the mother, for instance?

To hold that viewpoint, you would need to have a non-existent judgemental side. And by nature, human beings are judgemental, so that would be vanishingly rare to truly feel that way.

[TillHammerZeit]

I'm as judgemental as anyone.but it really is irrelevant to me,not that another woman's body is my business anyway,why a woman does not wish to continue with a pregnancy.

That's what it comes down to, whether she has became pregnant as a result of rape,or doesnt want to cancel a holiday,or anything inbetween,she does not wish to continue a pregnancy,and that is a situation which no one should ever be forced into IMHO.

[SaucyJackOLantern]

Read my last paragraph Memphis- the pope I am not .

I would most certainly put someone who would rather terminate a healthy pregnancy than get stretch marks into the category of someone who shouldn't be having a baby anyway.

[Pyjamaramadrama]

Well for a start, it's all just DM hype, we know that she appears to be a young woman with a few problems to keep putting herself in these situations and so publicly.

Pro choice is just that imo, a choice to end a pregnancy because it's not right for the woman and her existing family at that point in time.

No woman should be forced to bring a baby into poor conditions even if those conditions are just that she desperately doesn't want the child. It's not fair on the woman but it's certainly not fair on the baby.

It's arguable that some people just shouldn't have children, and there are agencies who will deal with that if and when the time comes by offering support and if necessary removing the children.

Abortion can be a touchy subject because life seems sacred if the baby is wanted, you do everything to nurture and protect that life inside you, while others are having a medical procedure to take it away.

But personally I do see abortion as a medical procedure and a necessary one, there are enough unwanted children in care and women who for whatever reason can't cope and abortion is a far better option than thousands more unwanted children whatever the reason may be.

[DiaDuit]

Not wanting stretch marks as 'valid' a reason as a pregnancy being life threatening to the mother, for instance?

My friend has decided not to have children because she knows she will get the same stretch marks her mum and aunties all got/have which are quite extreme as far as stretch marks go. However friend is married and having (protected) sex so there is a small chance she could fall pregnant at some point. Is there really a huge difference between not wanting to get pregnant to avoid stretch marks and terminating a pregnancy to avoid stretch marks? Is she wrong for not wanting to be pregnant to avoid stretch marks?

[AMumInScotland]

I think you can be 'pro-choice' while still being 'anti-attention-seeking-idiot'.

Her stated (imaginary) reasons are shallow and self-centred. You don't have to feel any degree of approval of her as a person, her choices, her thought-processes, or anything else in the detail.

You are pro-choice if you think that even shallow idiots should be allowed to make this choice for themselves, however crap you might think their reasons are.

[ScarletFever]

Exactly..... its so bloody complicated (our own feelings)

I'm most annoyed with me, having problems reconciling how 'right' a choice can be.....