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To wonder how the next generation will afford a house?

(952 Posts)
Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 11:19:02

DH and I want to move to what will hopefully be our family home, in 2 years. Work commitments means we can't do it sooner but I'm stressing about how much house prices might rise in that time.

That got me thinking about how today's children will ever be able to buy a home.

I know it's a very British thing to aspire to home ownership but rightly or wrongly it is the norm.

Many of my friends and extended family have only been able to get on the property ladder with a significant hand out from the bank of mum and dad, but unless their circumstances drastically change, they are not going to be in a position to do the same for their children.

What do you think will happen about houses with the next generation?

sarinka Mon 21-Apr-14 11:25:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lioninthesun Mon 21-Apr-14 11:28:27

I have had to decide whether to remortgage and send DD private (prob not pay off mortgage as am a LP) or just to keep it so she has some inheritance. I've decided she will appreciate an inheritance more, esp if having a family. I don't want her to have to rely on a man so I feel this is important.

I don't know how the next generation will afford it without inheritance sadly.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 11:30:43

You might think 'getting on the property ladder' is BS sarinka but it is a uniquely British way of life so can't just be dismissed.

SleepySuitcaseSheepie Mon 21-Apr-14 11:30:48

Im seriously struggling right now - I'm still at home with my family because I work away so much it's not practical for me to rent. Equally I never saved when I first got my first full time job , I'm getting there slowly but it's ever so frustrating when I see all my friends who have moved out way before me.

I think majority of people will rent till they get enough money together to buy - normally from a inheritance though, I can't see how many people will manage to do it -" unless they live at home until their 30's ?

Sleepwhenidie Mon 21-Apr-14 11:32:22

As Sarinka says, I think the culture will change from one of home ownership to renting, I think it's more like that in other European countries...tbh with the high proportion of interest only mortgages, many people are effectively renting anyway - the advantage/disadvantage is that you bear the cost of maintaining/improving and insuring the property as you wish.

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 11:39:36

sarinka Why is wanting to get on the property ladder bullshit?
For many people rent is the largest outgoing - owning a property is the only way of working towards not having to pay that particular outgoing. So, technical, if you were to buy just one house to live in forever, in 25 years you would be mortgage free. Massively reducing your monthly outgoings.

You're also creating an asset for yourself, investing a proportion of your outgoings into something that is unlikely to significantly depreciate in value.
You are in more control of your own housing situation and not giving money to someone else for a temporary accommodation solution with the risk of being turfed out.

I see nothing bullshit about owning a home at all.
IMO renting is pretty much dead money and is an unfortunate reality for a while for most of us - but a stepping stone to freer living.

My grandparents, for example, don't own their own home so now have to find that extra money from their pitiful state pension. My OHs grandparents, however, do own their own home so pay maybe £650 less a month and have the security of knowing they won't have to leave their own home and will be passing on an asset to their children.

I'm genuinely interested to hear why you think this is all bullshit?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Mon 21-Apr-14 11:40:31

The culture of home ownership is a relatively new phenomenon in the UK. 100 years ago it was a very small percentage that owned. I believe it reached its high point of 70%+ in Mrs Thatcher's time with the right to buy and has been slipping back since.
(Sorry on phone so can't link). I think the IFS had a report on this.

Perhaps we need to address the myth that home ownership is the usual way and look again at the rights of tenants (I say that as a landlord).

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Mon 21-Apr-14 11:43:57

To clarify on the rights of tenants. Tenants in Europe are better protected than the UK and often tenancies are longer so they can plan for years rather than 6 months. The UK is not tenant friendly by comparison.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 11:44:18

I want my children to save like I/we did. They already have savings accounts now and will want them saving large amounts from their first jobs onwards.

tiggytape Mon 21-Apr-14 11:45:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

catsmother Mon 21-Apr-14 11:46:27

I think probably the main reason people are "so attached" to the property ladder idea is that the alternative - private renting - is so unappealing for most. Like most things, if you have money to burn renting probably isn't too dreadful a proposition because even if you share the same lack of security, having to find somewhere new if asked to leave is always going to be easier if you can absorb moving costs and you will inevitably have more choice with more money to spend. It's a very different story for people on low or even so called average wages who are often reliant on HB to make up rent, and who will therefore be restricted to (comparatively rare, and often less desirable) HB properties, as well as all the additional costs that are pretty inevitable when you move - which could, if they're unlucky, be every year. Having no choice but to make an expensive move - with all the potential impact on schooling, jobs, childcare etc - is exactly why most Brits want to have the security of their own place. I know this isn't necessarily the norm in Europe and I have very little knowledge of rent laws there but the impression I get of countries such as Germany is that tenants are far more protected from both arbitrary rent increases and being asked to vacate after only a short let. It makes sense that (for example) Germans are less bothered about becoming owners if their rental system is fair and reliable.

As for the next generation it worries me dreadfully. Chances are that many of us lucky enough to own somewhere will see our equity eaten up by either care home fees, or indeed by downsizing - and then living off the proceeds because our pensions are so crap. Much as we'd like to we may not have anything to pass on as a result. As ever I think in years to come it'll only be the rich and/or the very lucky who own their own homes. It therefore follows that if demand for rental properties increases dramatically, surely that system would have to be improved sooner or later ..... because great swathes of people forced into accepting a shitty system would be a powerful political voice ?

Sleepwhenidie Mon 21-Apr-14 11:47:11

I agree the law on tenancy also needs to change to better protect tenants Chaz.

missymarmite Mon 21-Apr-14 11:47:28

I do think we have an unrealistic view of home ownership, fuelled by the lack of cheap and stable long- term lets for families. Home ownership shouldn't be the norm, but as things stand it is the only way for people to feel secure.

I worry that our kids won't be able to afford even to rent though. It's the rental market that needs reforming, along with a massive build of social housing for young working families.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 11:48:40

Mortgages are often much cheaper than rents and you have an asset. I cant see any appeal to renting personally.

Changebagsandgladrags Mon 21-Apr-14 11:51:44

We're going to sell this house, buy a flat for us and use the rest for deposits on their places.

They are primary school age now, we should have paid off the mortgage by the time they are in a position to buy. We won't need a house, just somewhere to live.

I hope that sounds sensible?

tiggytape Mon 21-Apr-14 11:52:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BearsInMotion Mon 21-Apr-14 11:53:12

I don't see why home ownership shouldn't be the norm - the problem is those that see property as a way to make money either through buy-to-let or the value increasing rather than longterm security for families.

expatinscotland Mon 21-Apr-14 11:53:29

Mine will emigrate.

Ifpigscouldfly Mon 21-Apr-14 11:55:23

Jasmine will your children be able to live with you while they save then ? Most people who rent (like myself) can't afford to save for a house as well. I am now very very lucky in which I have a decent job and might just might be able to get together enough to put down a 5% deposit on a teeny house in the next 5 years.

Sleepwhenidie Mon 21-Apr-14 11:56:14

But the buy to let/investment market has been fuelled by terrible pension prospects, you can't tell people how to invest their money bearsinmotion confused

GrassIsSinging Mon 21-Apr-14 11:56:38

Its a constant worry for every parent I know here in London.

I actually long for the days when social housing was the norm!

I grew up in the 80s in inner London - real mix of social class/levels of wealth etc - and almost everyone we knew lived in social housing. It just wasnt an issue. Then Thatcher sold off all the council housng, and I do mean virtually all of it, bar a few large housing estates. It was such a game changer. I know thats very old news, but the impact has been HUGE here. The flat I grew up in - three bed ex-council flat on a grotty road - is worth £750,000. A three bed ex-council terrace is close to a million. Who can afford that? Young couples? Working families? Who??

We benefited fron the property market, because we were lucky in many respects. My DH was older and had a good salary when we met, I inherited a lump sum of money that I could contribute as a deposit, and we bought in an area of London that was grotty/rough (Hackney), but appreciated massively and rapidly, and sold at the height of the market for a huge profit. So 'we're alrght, Jack'. But I still feel really sad and quite angry that most of my frends are NOT alright, Jack. Many are not on the property ladder at all, yet social housing is over in London. They are renting privately for extortionate sums and are not able to save for their children's futures.

I live in a far out suburb of London, now, and even here a 1 bed flat goes for 250k. Hpw anyone who doesnt have an inheritance or mortgage-free parents helping them out can afford to buy for the first time, I have no idea.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 11:59:39

If pigs could fly - They will work in some capacity from age 16 and I will take proportion of their money to put in their savings going up and up as they progress. They are welcome to move bfs/dhs in as well for as many years as they like.

gamerwidow Mon 21-Apr-14 12:01:18

I think these new help to buy schemes are fuelling a big unsustainable bubble which along with a rise in interest rates which can't be too far off will see house prices crashing. I feel so sorry for anyone whose just bought a house or who has a big mortgage because there's going to be rough times ahead.

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 12:02:30

I'm 22 and received no financial help from anyone at all. My education was through state schools.
I moved away from home and supported myself from 17.
I bought my first house in December.
I did this by working two jobs and saving most of my money.
I work in admin (not management, just admin) in the Midlands Mon to Fri and as a Nanny in London at weekends. It's a 60-70 hour week on average.

uselessidiot Mon 21-Apr-14 12:03:45

Dh and I will never be able to buy a house. I actually worry that dds won't even be able to afford rent, I don't want them to be homeless and it scares me.

Ifpigscouldfly Mon 21-Apr-14 12:03:52

That's lovely jasmine ! It's just a shame so many parents won't be able to do that for their children. Or even if they can the dc may not be able to get employment in the area. It's going to be hard for a lot of people.

Ifpigscouldfly Mon 21-Apr-14 12:05:14

Gamer why are they unsustainable ? I'm hoping to use the scheme - I can easily afford the mortgage but just trying to get the deposit while renting is harder.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 12:05:22

I used to worry about this for DS1 who is now 25, her earns 22k a year, if met a partner on similar money its doable. When he was younger and earned about 14k I thought no way. I think people can often find a way to buy if they choose a cheap area. Its rare to stay in your first property for your whole life.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 12:05:57

Im same as objection I bought at age 18 with minimal help from anyone but I had saved up 10k myself by that age. The only help I had was �550 off my nan and my mum paid a couple of months council tax. I worked a lot though, and still do.

Thomyorke Mon 21-Apr-14 12:07:41

The biggest problem is the divide it will cause between the have and have nots. I am one of the made good from the council house to good employment and a home owner. Now I am not qualified to do my last job it went from 5 GCSE to graduate when I left and I would not be able to save for a deposit that you need today, the path I took is closed. My DCs should be ok, I have trust fund for my disabled child and enough to help with university and deposit for my other children.

namechangenumber5 Mon 21-Apr-14 12:08:58

My oh and I will have two homes paid off by the time I'm 54. In sure that's been made possible in part because my ovaries don't work, thereby allowing me to. We are in the south with standardised government wages, meaning that out posts earn the same wage in other cheaper areas of the country. We're lucky, we got in early and focused our efforts on what we knew we wanted. We are now in the home we will live in until we become elderly, by which time we will sell both houses and live off that income. I know this it's a fortunate position

namechangenumber5 Mon 21-Apr-14 12:09:26

Damn phone!

namechangenumber5 Mon 21-Apr-14 12:13:47

AS You say op, like it or not this had been a part of our culture. It will be odd transitioning to a way of life that means this is not the aspiration of the majority.

BearsInMotion Mon 21-Apr-14 12:15:33

I just think it's unethical that one generation bought security at the cost of the next - surely there were better ways to save that don't mean that use majority of the those who don't inherit will struggle to ever own a home?

morethanpotatoprints Mon 21-Apr-14 12:20:28

My ds1 is 22 and like the poster above didn't have any financial help from us.
Since 16 he has supported himself, paid for uni and done several jobs to save for a deposit.
he and his gf 21 are house hunting now and have been accepted for a mortgage.
They will only be able to start off in a 2 up 2 down terrace with small garden, but this is enough for them. They aren't planning a family anytime soon so think the house will suit for at least 10 years.
Neither is afraid of getting their hands dirty and ds is good at DIY after helping dh since he was little.
I think it is possible, but maybe this generation won't have to be too picky.

expatinscotland Mon 21-Apr-14 12:22:39

What if you can't get a job in one of these 'cheaper' areas?

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 12:24:41

I mentioned 'cheaper' areas with regard to a few miles from where I live but near to where my DS works.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 12:26:16

I lived 300 miles from my first property for nearly 4 years and got a job that came with really trampy room and lived in that.

GrassIsSinging Mon 21-Apr-14 12:26:35

I agree Bear .... Even though I have profited from it in sone ways. Its all fucked up. There is such a divide now in London between home owners and their future generations, and those who cannot andprobably will never be able t offer their children that kind if security.

morethanpotato, you dont live in London, I'd lay money on it. Thing is, London is where a sixth of the UK population live because of the employment market. Yet housing is now becoming unaffordable for many, and no amount of hard work or good sense can solve that problem.

aermingers Mon 21-Apr-14 12:27:26

The thing is in other European countries the financial system is geared up towards renting. It is affordable to rent in retirement. Tenancies are more secure and you can be fairly certain if you rent a home you can stay there for most of your life.

In this country if you don't have a house by retirement and you're not a social tenant you're pretty much fucked. Also a house is a pension pot for a lot of people now. Plus renting privately is not secure, landlords are badly regulated, rented houses often poorly maintained.

We are going to be in a situation in 50 years where there is a sharply dilineated society. Those who bought property when it was affordable will be able to have a comfortable retirement and pass on their wealth to their families. Those who weren't will spend it in extreme poverty and their families will remain poor as they will not inherit.

There appears to be no political will to provide affordable houses because the baby boomers want their houses to be worth a bomb and they retain political control.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 12:29:13

morethan, I know it is still possible to buy a house at a young age now but I'm referring more to today's babies.

In 20 years where will they realistically get deposits from?

If house prices continue to increase disproportionately to incomes and their parents don't have the means to gift them large sums, what will they do?

I understand the argument that renting in Europe is better for tenants than it is here but I'm not sure how they manage once they retire. Surely the point of owning your own home is that once the mortgage is paid off your outgoings massively reduce and you can hopefully afford to live when your income reduces.

Laquitar Mon 21-Apr-14 12:29:50

Can i ask -genuine question- which countries do people mean? I keep reading that in europe people dont aspureto home ownership but the only country it is mentioned is always Germany.
Do you mean the Northern Europe too?
As far as i know in Eastern and in South Europe people are a lot more keen into owning their house.
It is not like only the British think like this and they are weirdos. I think most people wherever they live in the world aspire to have their own house.

The only thing i find different is that in other European cities it is normal for wealthy families to live in flats. And to live in that flat for the rest of their lives, they don't move from area to area like the Londoners seem to do.

expatinscotland Mon 21-Apr-14 12:30:59

Retire? LOL!

morethanpotatoprints Mon 21-Apr-14 12:31:32

grass

No, we live NW, we couldn't afford London and turned down work there because of this.
It was our plan when younger, to live in London. I'm so glad we decided against it now.
Saying that though, wages are much lower here in comparison to the South.

Sleepwhenidie Mon 21-Apr-14 12:31:42

Bears I think you'll find that the individuals investing in buy to let are doing so to provide security for the next generation, typically their own children, same as any of us. There are plenty of other 'unethical' investments (Nestle anyone?) that people choose too...

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 12:31:59

Housepricewoes - Most will live with their parents and move their dhs/dws in until they have enough like lots of people do now. I have friends up and down the country and most have mortgages in their 20s due to this type of thing or doing what I did. Only the ones that arent too bothered or have been travelling havent

JacktheLab Mon 21-Apr-14 12:36:46

They will have a hard time I think getting onto the property ladder, we are trying to save money for our DS so he might have a chance of getting some sort for deposit together.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 12:37:49

Most will live with their parents and move their dhs/dws in until they have enough like lots of people do now

I just can't see how even that will work in 20 years.

Those parents whose children are doing that now were lucky enough to buy big houses which facilitate it- people are now generally having to buy houses/flats smaller than they'd ideally like.

If you have a 2 bed house now with 2 DC's, you're not going to be able to allow the 2 DC's and their partners live with you, ie 6 adults in a 2 bed house.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 12:40:05

Yeah of course you can you can have your living room as a bedroom as long as the room sizes are decent.

sarinka Mon 21-Apr-14 12:40:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 12:41:48

Are you serious jasinemai?

Would you really want to live like students? Where would you all sit during the day/ evening?

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 12:43:19

I am 45 and had the same thought 10 or more years ago, lots people will find a way to buy. I never thought my DS and his friends would move out of the family home but once they got to about 22 they all started to rent places. I don't think people will live at home for ever. This is just my opinion.

jasminemai Mon 21-Apr-14 12:44:55

Not many people are in all the time though are they? All 6 of you are likely working full time with different social lives and shifts. They do it in other countries, and plenty of people live like that in the uk.

Apatite1 Mon 21-Apr-14 12:46:22

It's a very big problem in London. We've decided not to have kids (bar some change of mind later) and the thought of our kids not being able to afford decent homes when they grew up was one of the factors. You may think that's extreme, but I have serious reservations about the kind of life the next generation will have to face. We are struggling as it is, despite having large salaries, house prices are beyond ridiculous now. Small 2 bed terrace in my area (which we are tied to due to jobs) costs £850,000. We would need to make payments of £3-4k per month, plus would need a huge deposit. We can manage it, but it's a big chunk of our monthly income and how on earth could people on average salaries pay this every month? It's simply impossible. And we couldn't do it at all if we had to pay for childcare on top.

Some people will be able to move away from London, but not everyone can, depending on their work. I am full of despair for the next generation, unless house prices take a tumble, or they have high six figure salaries, or they can get social housing, they are truly f**ked.

lilypie13 Mon 21-Apr-14 12:46:48

I worry about this too...

I don't think it's bs to want to get on the property ladder it makes perfect economical sense. When you give up work how will you continue to pay rent on top of everything else ? So it makes sense to pay off a mortgage and be able to leave something for your kids

SpiderNugent Mon 21-Apr-14 12:50:07

Those who are motivated to do so, will find a way. Those who want everything given to them regardless of their life choices wont

simple

MiniatureRailway Mon 21-Apr-14 12:51:00

I'm mid/late twenties and out of my group of friends the homeowners are those who had a leg up in the form of wealthy parents or inheritances or like me, married someone more well off. We are all graduates with decent paying jobs and don't live in a particularly welltodo area but it is eyewateringly expensive to buy now.

IHaveAFifthSense Mon 21-Apr-14 12:53:23

I'm 22 and am yet to be out of full-time education. I have always worked through the summer and part-time when studying for my undergraduate degree, but I'm still not even close to being able to buy. Having a young child and living in London means that being able to afford to buy is not something that will happen any time soon.
I have grown up here and my whole life is here, so moving elsewhere will be a massive upheaval and I will probably be very isolated. It seems as if I either lose out or lose out!

sarinka Mon 21-Apr-14 12:55:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

specialsubject Mon 21-Apr-14 12:57:14

usual lying anti-landlord crap here.

- you can set up a tenancy for as long as you like if both sides agree - 6 months is the minimum.
- if tenants continue to rent poorly maintained houses, more fool them. If the landlord doesn't fix things, give notice and go. Market forces.
- outside London rents are controlled by market forces. Too pricey and no-one lives there.
- UK tenants are protected. They cannot be evicted at will (Even if they refuse to pay any rent or trash the place). There are standards, laws, etc etc.
- the poster who said that the elderly relatives who own their place will never have to leave it and will have it to pass on to their children seems to be blissfully ignorant of the possibility disability, senility and the cost of care home fees.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 12:58:28

IHaveAFifthSense, I lived, studied and had a baby in London but then moved out to buy. It wasn't a 'lose out' thing, turning the key in the door for the first time was worth moving away for.

NoArmaniNoPunani Mon 21-Apr-14 13:01:36

Won't house prices have to drop if no one can afford to buy them?

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 13:02:01

sarinka- if the majority of Brits emigrated the problem would be solved but that's not going to happen. You might have opted out of the UK system but most people are going to have to find a way to live with it.

jasminemai no offence but I just don't believe there are many parents who are planning on living in student dig style set ups when their children are grown up. I understand some people live like that already but for those who don't - I really don't think they aspire to do so.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 13:04:05

Won't house prices have to drop if no one can afford to buy them?

Not necessarily because people are prepared to stretch themselves to afford them and demand is outstripping supply at the moment.

IHaveAFifthSense Mon 21-Apr-14 13:05:24

Creamy that must be a good feeling. Did you move very far from London? I worry about moving hours away, and the outskirts don't seem to be much cheaper.

Lioninthesun Mon 21-Apr-14 13:06:29

I don't think rental gives you more freedom at all! The capital from a house is huge and you can do anything with it if you chose to.

ballinacup Mon 21-Apr-14 13:06:54

Special

-regardless of how long the tenancy is, the landlord can give notice at any time.
- once someone is trapped in a shithole, it becomes impossible to get out. They need to find agency fees, a deposit and a month's rent up front, all whilst paying rent and bills on their current shithole.
- ultimately, within a few months, a LL can evict, regardless of the reason. A good tenant, that pays their rent may be evicted purely because the LL wants the house back to sell or for family reasons, which bank would call in a mortgaged property on a personal whim?
- it is a BAD thing for elderly people to not have a large asset. If they don't then future tax payers will be paying their housing benefit or care home fees.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 13:11:09

About an hour away and then I did another move a bit further out but with a quick train service into London.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 21-Apr-14 13:19:15

In the UK and the USA, renting seems to have a stigma that it doesn't in many EU countries. It's not just for financial reasons, it's also the god-awful snobbery and class issues.

Renting is very useful for those who change jobs a lot. Owning a house can restrict job options unless you are pretty well off.
Also, repairs, renovation and redecoration can cost a bomb.

I've lived in rented accommodation in Germany and I own a small rented flat there & in the UK, so I've experienced both sides.

Renting in Germany, I had:
1) a resident LL (downstairs flat) who kept sticking her nose in every week to see what I was doing.
2) a (multi-millionaire) LL with dozens of properties, notorious for avoiding repairs for months - radiators, bath in my case. Happens in any country.
3) Frankurt rents were like SE England

Also, I saw some properties "for Germans only", buggered if I know how that was legal.
hmm
What is great for renters is the greater security of tenure, which really should be brought to the UK.

I am a responsible LL about repairs and I actually find it easier being an LL in Germany:
. Tenants are responsible for regular redecoration and minor repairs. Also, they have to paint and paper before moving out. Saves the LL loads of time, not just money.
. There is a registry with ID for all German residents, so even if a tenant skips and changes address a few times (happened to me once) they can't avoid the debt plus costs in the end.
. LLs can sell properties with tenants to other LLs, no need for vacant possession

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Mon 21-Apr-14 13:21:00

Special

The reality is that most landlords don't offer more than 6-12 months. It is very difficult to force a bad landlord to maintain and as a PP said there is a large financial hurdle to moving as you are unlikely to get you deposit back until after you've moved. If you add into the mix the number of landlords who won't or can't take HB then it's really not as simple as you suggest. I am a landlord and even I can see this!

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 13:27:20

If I get a job offer in Argentina tomorrow, I only have to worry about four weeks' rent to my landlord and tidying the place up a bit... and it's hola amigos (or whatever they say in Argentina)! Who wouldn't want such freedom?

If I get a job in Argentina tomorrow then I just need to advertise my house, let it out and I'll be covering my mortgage and have an asset to fall back on should I need to.
And when I retire I won't have to worry about paying to have roof over my head.

Suggesting that my house could get hit by an earthquake or replaced with a motorway is just hysterical. Home insurance will protect me from the former and should the government take my house they have to pay market rate for it - so ill come away with money in my pocket to find somewhere new.
Both scenarios apply if I were renting but I would be much worse off.

You seem to think that owning a home prevents you from doing so many things - it's just doesn't.

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 13:29:43

the poster who said that the elderly relatives who own their place will never have to leave it and will have it to pass on to their children seems to be blissfully ignorant of the possibility disability, senility and the cost of care home fees.
And how would they pay for that? By selling their house. Yes, the children don't benefit from inheritance but what would the elderly who only have rent do in that case?
Again, in the scenario you paint, the home owner would be better off than the renter.

expatinscotland Mon 21-Apr-14 13:29:44

How many parents are going to be able to keep adult children whilst they save for an overpriced box.

What a way to live!

Far easier to prepare them to find a better country to live in.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 13:31:38

Objection, the elderly person who is renting would get their care provided for free assuming they have less than about 14k in savings.

TravellingToad Mon 21-Apr-14 13:32:06

well all the houses are going to have to be owned by somebody aren't they?

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 13:32:39

expat - what country would you recommend? Genuinely curious smile

BigChocFrenzy Mon 21-Apr-14 13:33:20

If you don't own property, you should save for a bigger pension.
Work out what suits you best - renting is more flexible, owning is probably better if you have a secure job and plan to stay for 10 years.

Objection Mon 21-Apr-14 13:35:11

Creamy - so they are relying on the government to bail them out? A lifetime of spending on rent and then needing support? How is that better than owning your own home and paying your own way?
I am not benefit bashing or anything like that, I know that many people don't have a choice (some of my own family included) but I don't see how the "renting is better" position is at all defendable.

Eminybob Mon 21-Apr-14 13:36:11

Me and DP saved a 5% deposit in 9 months for our first house just last year, while paying rent, car loans, all other bills etc.

We just made sacrifices. No help from mum and dad. I think that's the key thing. It is doable, but people get too reliant on expecting handouts, and forget about hard work.

expatinscotland Mon 21-Apr-14 13:38:40

Depends on which languages they speak, * objection*.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 13:38:46

If you don't own property, you should save for a pension

That's a bit naive- in many cases the problem is that renting is so expensive it means you can't save- either for a deposit or for a pension.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 13:39:04

I didn't say renting is better. Even if you have a house to sell it may not cover care home fees for as many years as needed and then you would still need some govt. help.

JumpingJackSprat Mon 21-Apr-14 13:39:56

Part of the problem is the insistence that everyone must go to uni regardless of whether they actually need a degree for a particular career such as medicine or law. If uni wasnt seen as "the thing" to do after you finish school then less people would go and tie themselves into thousands in debt before they've even started to get a degree they won't use. When i was leaving school the only option i was presented with was university. I started at the bottom in my job at 18 and earning £12k and have worked my way up to be earning a decent wage without having gone to uni. Therefore i have no debt and much more disposable income each month which makes a mortgage much more achievable.

Ifpigscouldfly Mon 21-Apr-14 13:40:55

Might I ask what your incomes were eminy ? That's a huge amount to save in a few months. I for example am lucky enough to be able to save 500 a month or thereabouts but I still estimate it will take 2 years to be able to put down a 5% deposit with enough to pay fees, insurance and for furniture as well. That said if there are 2 of you and I am single so perhaps you are not far off my financial status.

WooWooo Mon 21-Apr-14 13:41:10

I bought my own home at 21, I worked hard and saved. It is very doable. I will encourage my DC to do similar

BigChocFrenzy Mon 21-Apr-14 13:42:00

It's a hell of a lot easier to save 6 weeks deposit and (if applicable) agents' fees than deposit on a house.
If you move and rent out your house in the UK, you are responsible for repairs, redecoration, paying tax, also additional insurance and safety certificates. To provide a fast efficient 24 / 7 service, an agent is best, minimum 10%+VAT.

IfNotNowThenWhen Mon 21-Apr-14 13:42:17

I am in my 30's and will never be able to buy a house, probably. Even if I could, anywhere I might just about manage to get a massive mortgage for, would on the kind of council estate I don't want to live on. I don't care if that annoys the people who think that you should just buy anything, anywhere for your "first home" and suck it up.
Sure, maybe at 21 that would have been OK, but not now, not with a young son, not when we would have to live in it for the foreseeable future/forever.
I agree with GrassisSinging. I have many friends who grew up in Inner London council housing. That just doesn't exist any more. The fact that a council flat could be three quarters of a million quid just sickens me.
Some people have got very rich off the great sell-off of our social housing, and the rest of us are on the scrap heap.
And my heart doesn't bleed for my Landlord, no. He has owned my house (and others) outright since the 80's. He collects a shedload in rent, and fixes nothing.
The electrics are wonky, the whole downstairs needs re-plastering (I will probably end up paying for this myself) the laminate floor is coming unstuck. The longer a house is rented, the more dilapidated it becomes, and I have been renting for 20 years, so I should know.
The other day, DS asked me if we could live here forever (he has moved 3 times in his memory, 4 in total).
I said "I don't know", because I don't. 2 months notice and we could be out, who knows. People who own have no fucking idea what it feels like to not have that security of knowing, especially when you have children.
I am so fed up with people who live in nice houses saying "oh we must be more like the Continent and get away from this vulgar British obsession with owning".
Care to swap with me? Thought not.

Apatite1 Mon 21-Apr-14 13:42:40

I agree that it's very possible for people on average incomes to get on the housing ladder in less expensive parts of the country, by making a few sacrifices. It's not the same in London, or other highly expensive parts of the UK. You may get a tiny flat but who wants to raise kids like that? Some people will of course raise kids in a shoebox, but a decent family sized home with a small garden is really not unreasonable to want, in my view.

SuzzieScotland Mon 21-Apr-14 13:43:06

No. They are long overdue a crash.

Property ladder is such a stupid term, it just meens signing yourself up to a lifetime of debt and means you have to keep on working.

CurlyhairedAssassin Mon 21-Apr-14 13:43:19

Where I live a monthly mortgage payment on a family house is much cheaper than renting. If ever we had to go back to renting again I really don't know how we could afford the same sized house as we have now. I just hope and pray that we both remain lucky enough to Stayin jobs that will enable us to pay off our mortgage in 15 years time.

I know people who are going through a divorce and who jointly own a house but whoever moves out can't afford to rent a place big enough to accommodate the children when they come to stay. They end up stuck in a shitty bedsit with no hope of renting somewhere bigger OR saving for a deposit on a bigger place.

The rentals market is fucked up as well as house sales. So we could never be a nation of renters like much of Europe with rental costs so high here. What will happen is that grown up children will have to live at home long term as happened years ago with in married grownup kids.

LtEveDallas Mon 21-Apr-14 13:46:00

DH and I have just bought our first house. DD is 9.

The house we have bought has enough room at the side and back to extend and build a 'granny annex' or 'student flat'. We have kept some money aside to be able to do exactly that if needed - we don't know what DD is going to want to do as an adult of course, but the option will be there if she wants it.

My sister downsized a few years ago to get her daughter on the housing ladder. DNeice still lives at home for now and has rented out her starter home whilst she completes her studies. She gave her tenants a 5 year contract, but tbh I can see her staying at home for a lot longer.

uselessidiot Mon 21-Apr-14 13:46:05

My dds are obviously welcome to stay but they'll have to live separately from their partners unfortunately. By moving 2 more adults in we would be considered to have made ourselves intentionally overcrowded, in breach of tenancy and therefore evicted.

BigChocFrenzy Mon 21-Apr-14 13:46:14

Buying and owning a property is more expensive than renting. Saving is normally more flexible than a mortgage. Those who can't afford to put something extra aside for a larger pension would struggle to be homeowners.
Sadly, many people are struggling. A rotten situation to be in.

IfNotNowThenWhen Mon 21-Apr-14 13:47:18

And, oh how it makes me ROAR with laughter when people suggest I move rather than nag the LL to fix stuff. Sure, because all other rented houses are in such good shape!
The market (as we are being buffeted hither and thither by market forces which tell us that we live in "properties" not "homes") is so competitive for reasonable family homes where I live, that, should I decline to live somewhere that will probably need a bit of work, someone else will, in a heartbeat, leaving me, er...homeless.

God, some people on here live in cloud fucking cuckoo land.

BackforGood Mon 21-Apr-14 13:47:40

I think one of the problems on this thread, is that people who live in London are living in such a different world from people who live in the rest of the country. We could have a more realistic debate if there were 2 separate threads running.
Part of this conversation happens every generation.
I know when my brother brought his first flat in the mid 80s for about £20,000, my parents were horrified at that sort of debt - they were talking about how they'd been negotiating over a £25 difference between the offer and asking price when they bought our family home in 1967. Then there was a sudden boom, and suddenly when I was looking for a similar flat at the end of the 80s, and prices were £43,000, all my colleagues were horrified at the idea that myself, and another young colleague had taken on mortgages of £30,000. So it goes on.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 13:50:35

It's often cheaper per month to pay a mortgage than to rent.

Many people commit to massive rentals (50%+) of salary and scrimp on everything else but they just couldn't get a mortgage with that level of monthly payment as no one will lend it to them.

Housepricewoes Mon 21-Apr-14 13:53:45

Buying and owning a property is more expensive than renting.

Can you provide a link to prove that, as in my experience, that's just not true.

As I said above- renting is often more expensive than a mortgage based solely on monthly payments.

Ok, you have to maintain a property you own but you also benefit from and increases in its value.

Creamycoolerwithcream Mon 21-Apr-14 13:54:00

Who knows what is going to happen in 20 years time. There could be more Help to Buy schemes or 35/40 year mortgages could become the norm now people are working and living longer. I don't think the only people who buy are the one hat inherit money.

SuzzieScotland Mon 21-Apr-14 13:55:21

People saying it's cheaper to buy are only looking in the short term. Interest rates are the lowest they've ever been!

Mortgages are long term debts, interest rates could triple.

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