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To think this

(48 Posts)
VulvaBeaker Fri 21-Feb-14 11:11:04

AIBU to think that palming off sexual promiscuity as empowerment to young feminists sounds like it's to the benefit of lesbians and college boys who want sex, that it is in fact a subversion of feminist or equality values, and that particularly where it goes along the lines of pandering to some pole dancer stereotype, it serves both to breed objectification and disrespect, and to disarm young women of one of the very few real powers that they have in gender politics?

I appreciate I probably am, but honestly when I see young women behaving as if this makes them powerful, I see this serving the interests of people who are really, really not their friends more than anything else.

ReadyToPopAndFresh Fri 21-Feb-14 11:22:35

Not sure, I think some people are naturally quite "promiscuous" by society's standards. I don't think they should be slut shamed and feel shit about themselves.

But I also don't like the way our culture sexualises women so much and makes us feel likes all our power is in our tits either. Pole dancing has fuck all to with being "empowered" and if your only power is in your fanny you are doing something wrong. You have to be fun and love watching porn with the guys and be up for getting bummed because otherwise you're a prude who isn't "sex positive" or some bullshit.

Sexuality is just one aspect of people. WOmen are people. Some of like to get bummed by strangers on a Tuesday. Some of us would really prefer to keep it in our pants. Both should be OK.

Sarahschuster Fri 21-Feb-14 11:22:41

Can you explain how "palming off sexual promiscuity as empowerment" is to the benefit of lesbians?

ReadyToPopAndFresh Fri 21-Feb-14 11:24:04

Actually yes, that's a good point.. which lesbian is benefiting. Surely they're both lesbians hmm

ReadyToPopAndFresh Fri 21-Feb-14 11:25:42

I dont think lesbians are responsible for porn and raunch culture.

gordyslovesheep Fri 21-Feb-14 11:27:48

define 'promiscuity' - it's a social construct surely? and subjective

as a feminist I think people should have as much or as little sex as THEY CHOOSE to

SoldAtAuction Fri 21-Feb-14 11:30:38

If lesbians have this power over women, do gay men have this power over straight men?
Or are lesbians Super Powerful?

gordyslovesheep Fri 21-Feb-14 11:31:57

super lesbian powers - how cool grin

obviously all these predatory lesbian feminists tell girls it's liberating to sleep with them hmm - no wonder we have floods and storms

VulvaBeaker Fri 21-Feb-14 11:55:29

"Can you explain how "palming off sexual promiscuity as empowerment" is to the benefit of lesbians?"

In this instance the word is really included in the broad scope of "other people who might want to have sex with a given individual". I suppose it could be refined, but I felt getting more specific with words like "predatory" seemed to be suggesting something about lesbians in particular which I don't want to do - no if college boys can be understood to be predatory in the context of the sentence, so can lesbians by anybody reading it in good faith.

I would appreciate it if some people could approach the conversation on some kind of a human and respectable level, I'm reasonably well-educated and intelligent and asking in good faith, so I have no need to be patronized by anybody, thank you very much.

Ready I agree, I think it is disgusting that sex is seen as the primary power women have and that needs to be resolved, however I have yet to see any convincing rationale explaining how that would be achieved by disaggregating everything we know or have studied and replacing it with, in the current context, encouraging hypersexualized behaviour as a political protest, achieves much but putting young women at risk either from the perils of that context, or from making choices that can make them unhappy in the long run like STDs, unwanted pregnancy, or things they as an individual would not otherwise have done. Disarmament may seem like a great solution if you feel the only weapon you have is bullshit, but ultimately all it is actually doing is rendering yourself powerless through short-termism. Common sense would suggest you expand your arsenal first and keep that weapon or discard it later at your leisure.

To continue the "weapon" theme, there is also the risk of exposure to danger, which is a precarious line to walk because obviously blaming the victim is to be avoided at all times, but that has to be balanced by the fact that if you are in the woods where there are wolves, you are probably better off having a means of protecting yourself than having a very good argument as to why it was the wolves' fault. When we are literally talking about the lives and safety of DDs, this is not some abstract point but a practical consideration.

VulvaBeaker Fri 21-Feb-14 11:57:15

^ *"I have doubts that it achieves much"

Joysmum Fri 21-Feb-14 12:05:55

Personally, I don't make my decisions over my own sexuality based on feminism or anyone else other than me. I get fed up of feminists debating my choices as something that is against the cause.

daisychain01 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:09:41

VulvaBeaker i think boiling it down to its simplest form, the admittedly limited number of people I have known in my life to be promiscuous, bar none, have had big problems of self-esteem, poor self-image and feeling they have to conform to the modernised view of women.

Those people definitely weren't empowered and if anything they narrowed their life chances, made them bitter towards men and were pretty mixed up.

High self esteem comes from being able to say " no sorry I'm not prepared to sleep with you just to "keep you" and to walk away.

Something I don't buy into is the laddish argument, "Why shouldn't women enjoy sex". (Its a bit like women drinking a man under the table to prove a point). OK that's fine, women are free to have a different partner on a regular basis if they want, but then again women have much more difficulty compartmentalising sex and love unlike men who can remain emotionally aloof even while in the act. Yup, big generalisation but it does generally play out like that IME.

sadbodyblue Fri 21-Feb-14 12:12:34

well I think most women have a shag if they want one and don't if they don't.

I have brought up my dds to respect themselves and to please themselves over such matters.

fuck all to do with feminism.

sadbodyblue Fri 21-Feb-14 12:14:24

sorry the womem can't enjoy no strings sex and need emotion!

absolute bollocks. of course they can and so can men.

LaurieFairyCake Fri 21-Feb-14 12:18:30

Actually I think in this society it's really hard for young women to enjoy no strings sex. Not because of biology but because of all the conflicting messages thrown at them.

ReadyToPopAndFresh Fri 21-Feb-14 12:25:36

but then again women have much more difficulty compartmentalising sex and love unlike men who can remain emotionally aloof even while in the act. Yup, big generalisation but it does generally play out like that IME.

Yes, in your experience.

I agree with LaurieFairyCakes.. I think society tells women to do it then makes them feel bad about it.

I don't see why biologically speaking women would be less promiscuous then men when it is so much more difficult to get pregnant then it is to go putting your penis about. Surely it would make sense to have as much sex as possible for a woman?

VulvaBeaker Fri 21-Feb-14 12:44:27

sadbodyblue - interesting point! Do you think people being able to have a shag whenever they like (yay!) is something contemporary feminism is trying to suggest it invented, when it didn't? I think there might be a few other examples of such things, so your point struck home.

If anything, won't women be less empowered sexually, and less able to shag a broad variety of men without much effort, if sex is far far easier to get for men? Promiscuity is freedom/power being handed over to men, surely.

YouTheCat Fri 21-Feb-14 12:47:30

I had a lot of meaningless, casual, fun sex in my late teens. I enjoyed every minute of it, was never pressured into it and have no regrets.

Society can go swivel as far as I'm concerned. Do what makes you happy so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I didn't do it as some weird sign of feminism. confused

daisychain01 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:54:46

I am a little unsure what is meant by saying "society" is giving out conflicting messages. Does this mean"advertising"/media/organisations what? Is it that people see stuff on TV, in The movies etc, and that is making them promiscuous?

Maybe I am being naive, but society also equates to family units, OK many different combinations and oermutations these day sbut all the same. So are these messages given out by "society", being reinforced by families? Sure that is where the positive messages about women shoukd be coming from.

i just dont buy into this nameless faceless unaccountable thing called society that is responsible for women doing so much of the no strings attached shagging! Ah maybe its those vile expressions like " friends with benefits" whitewashing it that makes it so acceptable?

gordyslovesheep Fri 21-Feb-14 12:55:04

Feminism doesn't say be promiscuous it says have choice free from judgement ...that applies wether you have no sex or lots of it

Women can have as much sex as they wish , not sure why that's such an issue for you
I have had many sexual partners. My self esteem is just fine and dandy I just like sex

daisychain01 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:55:23

Oops sorry permutations that should say

daisychain01 Fri 21-Feb-14 12:59:26

But all that "freedom from judgement" does is allow potentially harmfull or detrimental things to happen and people become too scared to say anything at all. Like political correctness, people feel they have to walk on eggshells the whole time, oo mustnt say that, people will think I'm judging.

LaurieFairyCake Fri 21-Feb-14 13:02:27

I just think penis in vagina sex doesn't serve women very well and I'm fucking sick of the patriarchal society/porn pushing it.

The majority of women derive pleasure from other types of sex. Couple that with the relative fragility of the cervix to std's/pregnancy and really women should be having less PIV sex than other forms.

IMO PIV sex shouldn't be pushed so much but in this shitty society it's always going to be pushed as 'proper sex'.

The needs of women will be served when we have healthier sex and that's accepted as desirable by society.

YouTheCat Fri 21-Feb-14 13:04:42

Laurie, it might not serve you well but I'm pretty sure it does for others.

I really don't care how much or little sex other people have. That is their business.

LaurieFairyCake Fri 21-Feb-14 13:06:22

It serves me fine, I'm not talking about individuals.

I'm talking about serving women and casual PIV sex rather than other forms is the most dangerous.

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