To think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?(600 Posts)
Ok so Alex Salmond wants an independent Scotland, and sets out his ideas.
Then all three Westminster parties tell him - "no you can't share the pound and be independent as well, it would be too unstable. Did you see what happened in Europe when they tried to share a currency between different countries with different economic policies? And those countries were trying to become more united, and in this case the two countries would be trying to split apart!"
Then a guy from the European Union remarks that it won't be plain sailing for an Independent Scotland to join the EU, as all the other members will have to agree - and many won't as they don't want to encourage their own splinter states to start asking for independence as well.
So two fairly serious problems. And what is Alex Salmon's reaction? Basically to go "Ner ner ner, you're all being mean and nasty and you don't really mean it. I think that if we all vote yes for an independent Scotland, then you will change your mind and let us share the pound, and let us join the EU. You're bluffing, and so I'm not coming up with a plan for what would happen if Scotland voted yes and we realised that, oops no...you weren't bluffing".
How can anyone think this man does not sound a bit bonkers? I'm English, but if I was Scottish I would be very worried about voting for someone who thinks nothing of destabilising a whole economy just to make a Political point.
Well, Belgium and Luxembourg managed to share a currency for decades whilst having very different tax regimes, so that argument doesn't hold that much water...
I also think that countries worried about their own internal secession issues should shut up about Scotland and deal with those secession issues like adults, but not much chance of that happening.
On the other hand I don't think Scotland has what it takes to stand alone economically, and Alex Salmond is no great advert for Scottish independence.
Why is the pound so important? My country is part of the euro. Ireland is bouncing back really well after the recession and house prices on my family's road are starting to rise again. The pound isn't the be all and end all plus Scotland is very mineral rich with lots of gas deposits. Alba go brea, just like Eireann go brea in my opinion.
Nope I'm not worried and I will be voting yes. I'm more worried that the rest of the UK are not enraged by this government. This government put the retirement age up to 70 and we all sat back and said Thank you David.
Also when we do get independence I really hope you enjoy the terms and terms of Tory rule because labour will never get back in power without Scotland.
It gets better than that, SpineIAB. The EU says that all new members MUST adopt the Euro. Them's the rules, They don't want to start making exceptions. Scotland isn't important enough to bend rules for. AS is blithely skipping over that issue & snarling at Westminster over the £, instead. I guess he supposes that if England insisted on keeping Scotland using £ that EU would have to accommodate, maybe Scotland could be an associate member like Switzerland or Norway instead. Distraction or what?
Salmond is just on one huge ego trip. Dreadful, dreadful man.
Sarahquilt - why are rising house prices a good thing? The property bubble is what fucked Ireland in the first place. Bizarre.
YANBU - Somehow he has managed to end up campaining on an assertion that:
"Every single political party in London is bluffing."
"The Civil Service is bluffing."
"Europe are bluffing."
"Just wait until September and they'll all change their tune"
The things he wishes were possible are possible but only if any future currency partners want to play ball and it has been made pretty clear they don't.
Now Mr Salmond might be right. Maybe the goverment and Labour and the (neutral) Civil Service and the (independent) EU President are all bluffing like champions and will welcome Scotland with open arms the day it is independent - but they've really not given much hope on that score.
You cannot make someone share a currency who doesn't want to and you cannot make countries anxious about their own break-away states accept a newly formed country into the EU and create future expectations in their own countries.
In the meantime Scotland will vote either trusting that Mr Salmond is right about the all these people all doing a U-turn come September or not trusting in that and not knowing what would really happen.
I'm not saying that any kind of currency, be it the pound or the Euro wouldn't work, and yes the EU thing may work out fine as well.
It more that Alex Salmond doesn't seem worried about pushing forward with an independence vote, while all of these very important issues are totally unresolved. How can you vote for something if you're being told "the currency? Oh we're not sure yet, we'll just sort it all out later after we've had the vote".
And that is quite apart for the question of what kind of independence it would be without control over your own currency. And I imagine Scotland would have far far less control over the Euro than it would the pound.
See my Salmond toad thread from last night!!
Also when we do get independence I really hope you enjoy the terms and terms of Tory rule because labour will never get back in power without Scotland
Please, please, please dont say say that, it makes my stomach turn with fear!
Please remember Alex Salmond is not the definitive view on independence. Other parties with other views are involved, so his view is not necessarily that of the majority in favour of independence.
Having said that, I'd take Alex Salmond being in charge any day over David Cameron. I can't believe he still has a job when so many people have had homes and businesses ruined because he cut funding to the Environment Agency at a time of radical climate change.
I think the currency is a massive issue that AS is skating over. The crisis with the Euro has shown that if you have one currency you need integrated taxation and governance. Countries who have the Euro are now considering greater integration and ceding of sovereignty e.g. greater scrutiny of countries budgets esp after Greece. I don't see how you can have a common currency and independent countries.
Salmond is an idiot. The only person that will benefit from independence are the politicians. The general family won't. Anyone that thinks yes is a good idea is being very short sighted, and just asking for trouble. They will be the first on here to moan when rate of tax is soaring for example.
I have no say in the referendum, I'm not Scottish and I haven't really yet grasped what an independent Scotland would mean for the rest of the UK but I'm weirdly mesmerized by the whole debate, like a moth heading for a light.
There are quite a few countries in various levels of integration with the EU that don't use the Euro, it's hardly a show stopper.
IMO there is an orchestrated attempt being made to scare the Scots off going independent, its got as much to do with various EU states not wanting their own breakaway bits to get ideas.
Its also fairly easy to peg a currency to the pound and buy and sell in pounds in Scotland so all the wailing about difficulty of integrating to UK is way overblown.
Also I don't get the UK Govt's economic logic, if Scotland is such an economic drain they claim it is, why are they so keen to keep it?
As far as I'm concerned the more AS carries on in his fantasy dream world skating over the currency issue the better. Hopefully the people who are considering voting yes might realise how idiotic he is. Hopefully before September....
As much as I don't like AS I do agree with him that Westminster are bluffing re the �.
I was always firmly in the no camp and am not ashamed to admit the current Tory government has brought me alittle closer to the fence. But I think the thing that scares me most is reading comments on Facebook that are ra ting and raving about the snp and the whole thing with so little actual knowledge. I read comments this morning and someone had pointed out that new Zealand and the uk had shared the pound quite successfully. The person ranting had said that as the queen was new zealands head of state that made them British that's why they had the �
The whole 'yes' campaign is based on emotions rather than a whole lot of substance.
My cousin (Irish parents, born and raised in Britain but now resident in Ireland and obsessed with Irish nationalism) is constantly posting stuff on facebook about Scottish independence.
A lot of what he shares comes from the 'Celtic fans for independence' pages and is full of emotive stuff such as not wanting to be on the same 'team' as certain people no voters (some rangers supporters!) Occasionally he posts figures, claiming they will be the 'game changer' for the yes campaign (although you can make the figures work for you whatever your view).
I would hope that the majority of people in Scotland are going to base their vote on a little more than sectarian emotions.
I don't think Alex salmond really knows what he is doing, but its his job to persuade people to vote yes any which way he can. I don't really know much about Scottish independence and whether or not it would be good for Scotland by the way, but there just doesn't seem to be an overwhelming amount of evidence that it would be the best thing for Scotland, apart from the fact that they would no longer be tied to the nasty English.
On a personal level, I really like Alex S, actually, people who know him rate him as unbelievably clever & canny. Doesn't mean he gets it all right.
A grand conspiracy is what Salmond would like voters to see.
I don't live there so could shrug it off. But if the Scots vote for independence I suspect that it will be a very expensive ego-trip for them all.
A yes vote would be only the start of the secession process.
Plenty of countries peg their currency to another country's currency but they have very little say over fiscal policy, that's how it works. Salmond wants Westminster to rename the Bank of England the Bank of the British Isles and Scotland would get separate representation & voting rights over how it's run. This could be construed as defacto England-Wales-NI ceding powers to Scotland. Only those voters don't get a vote over it.
Where does Scotland export most of its goods? I imagine rest of UK must take about 70% of Scottish exports; but with exception of oil rest of UK could source most of those goods elsewhere for similar prices. So Scotland already seeing that its bargaining powers aren't brilliant.
There is a big difference between sharing the same currency, and piggybacking off the use of another currency.
Currently, inflation, growth, unemployment, investment, interest rates etc are all managed in part by using monetary policy. In other words, we print more or less money depending on our needs.
If an independent Scotland decides to piggy back off the £ then it's economy will be very different to that of the remaining countries and monetary policy will be determined based on those remaining in the union to the the detriment if the Scottish economy. There would also not then be the current checks and balances in place to tackle disparity and encourage all regions are doing as well as they might by pumping money in from central government.
Quite frankly, I can understand why many scots want to go independent and that they are being done a disservice by Alex Salmond who really lacks any degree of skill to transition an independent Scotland and take it into the international arena alone.
I am Welsh but live in England so I have no say over this important decision about my country. A yes vote will change my country in many ways, the effects will be long lasting. This makes me cross, the vote should be for all UK citizens.
Ds1(13) asked what the new Union flag would be, are we just going to remove the blue for Scotland or are we going to replace it with the dragon?
Is this a veiled attack?he doesn't sound bonkers.you do,for your intemperate post
Naturally AS will dispute the scenario/interpretation the London govt put
As they have vested interest in no,aren't subjective and will attempt to undermine yes vote
What are the main reasons the UK govt wants to keep Scotland in the union?
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