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to think that rape is NOT the only crime

(105 Posts)
Justforlaughs Tue 14-Jan-14 16:04:10

that blames the victim? I keep reading this and think that actually most victims of crime are blamed to an extent. Did you leave your windows unlocked? Yes, then we're not paying out on the insurance for the burglary. Why were you walking down a dark alley with an expensive mobile phone on display? - of course you're asking to get mugged. Did you give someone else your password? Of course you are the victim of fraud. Did you watch your suitcase every second in the airport? No, then you allowed someone to plant those drugs in your case. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that it happens. I don't understand it when people say that this only happens in rape cases.

manicinsomniac Tue 14-Jan-14 16:56:55

*always not also

LaGuardia Tue 14-Jan-14 17:00:08

Seriously, what kind of idiot leaves cars/doors unlocked at any time of the day? Who leaves luggage unattended? Who flashes expensive mobile phones in the street? It is all just asking for trouble imo.

BackOnlyBriefly Tue 14-Jan-14 17:11:58

I think the way rape is sometimes treated in court is in a different category, but I agree about blaming people for being robbed because they used a mobile phone when they were out (That's what mobile means) or because they didn't lock the door while they were inside the house.

As for the police being "dubious as to whether they'd be able to catch anyone or convict them if they did as the house was unlocked and the keys unsecured" that is nonsense. They probably couldn't catch them - unless they wore stripy jumpers and carried a sign saying "it was me", but if they had then I'm pretty sure going in a house and taking the keys is illegal anyway.

Where do you draw the line. No payout because you didn't have armed guards and dogs?

lollerskates Tue 14-Jan-14 17:16:49

Can someone explain to me what walking down the street naked has got to do with rape?

Kewcumber Tue 14-Jan-14 17:32:44

apparently thats what rape victims do lollerskates - they wander around naked.

I think part of the problem is that theft is a pretty objective crime - did you take something that belonged to someone else without their permission and with the intent to keep it.

Rape, on the other hand, is an issue of consent to an action and someones belief that consent has been given. Hence extraneous shit gets dragged in to try to muddy the waters as to whether or not the attacker made a mistake about consent rather than they didn't care about or seek consent.

The walking down the street naked comment relates to the fact that someone shouldn't think that a victims behaviour such as walking around naked is an invitation to be raped.

Fancyashandy Tue 14-Jan-14 17:44:13

We often leave our doors unlocked, didn't realise that was a crime.

lollerskates Tue 14-Jan-14 17:45:16

Ah ok thanks Kew - so walking around naked is a big risk factor for rape, is it? Presumably most women who are sexually assaulted are scantily clad at the time? That's good to know. I'll stop walking around naked now that I know that.

WilsonFrickett Tue 14-Jan-14 17:50:02

You make a point there Chaz. I don't suppose defence lawyers spend much time trying to make juries believe consent has been given to take someone's car, use it in a robbery then set it on fire. They will spend time however trying to make a jury believe consent had been given in a rape trial for all but 'stranger in alleyway' rapes.

BrownSauceSandwich Tue 14-Jan-14 17:52:06

The justice system DOES NOT blame victims of other crimes. Like other have said, burglary, whether the windows and doors were open or not, is always a crime. Vandalism, even if somebody leaves out spray paint and a golf club, is still always a crime. Your insurance might not pay out... If you dont like it, take it up with them, but it's really nothing to do with the criminal courts. (I know I'm only repeating what other posters have said, but I don't think everybody's reading)

The other thing with rape, is that the reasons for blaming the victim are not causes of rape. Likelihood of rape is not a function of the attractiveness of the victim, or the amount of skin she/he shows. It's a function of the cuntishness of the perpetrator, how confident he feels tat hell get away with it. Victims have fuck all control over those factors, so victim blaming in rape cases makes about as much sense as letting somebody off with a burglary because the car was blue.

SuzanneUK Tue 14-Jan-14 18:01:31

extraneous shit gets dragged in to try to muddy the waters

or, put another way, "further evidence is introduced in order that a more accurate picture of events may be drawn".

Not necessarily - the type of skirt the victim was wearing shouldn't really be relevant to anyone's perception of consent. To me that sort of thing is "extraneous shit".

SuzanneUK Tue 14-Jan-14 18:13:54

It's in the very nature of the lynch mob to denounce anything said prior to sentencing as "extraneous shit".

Don't be so ridiculous. This is a thread on an internet forum not the Bailey or the RCJ. Pomposity is never a good thing. You know as well as I do that there have been serious questions asked about how victim's conduct has been dragged through the mud when not really relevant to consent. And as for the recent case where a 13 abuse victim was described as "predatory" the mind boggles.

13 year old

Fancyashandy Tue 14-Jan-14 18:23:50

Don't forget the case where the teenage victim's thong was shown in court for some reason (probably the extraneous shit reason). Unfortunately she committed suicide soon after, they think partly because of the way she was treated (degraded) in court.

SuzanneUK Tue 14-Jan-14 18:37:11

There was a time and a place when, in a rape case, a lot of people thought everything that happened between the arrest and the hanging was "extraneous shit".

It seems we haven't progressed very far.

struggling100 Tue 14-Jan-14 18:37:55

The difference between blaming a rape victim for being raped, and blaming the victim of a burglary for leaving their doors unlocked is that behind the former lies an extremely negative picture of gender relations, which has damaged women for centuries. It says that men cannot control their desires once stimulated, and that they have a 'right' to have sex with any woman who looks attractive to them. Further, it's connected to the idea that women who dress in a way that is thought of, culturally, as attractive are somehow consenting to sex.

struggling100 Tue 14-Jan-14 18:42:10

Oops, posted too soon...

It is like arguing that, because a door is painted a particularly delicious shade of red, passersby were overcome by its beauty and were simply forced to rob the house. They couldn't help themselves. The door was just too enticing. And the house deserved forced entry for looking so pretty.

Sadoldbag Tue 14-Jan-14 18:46:30

I think sexual abuse often get turned round

I did read in sad story the mum actually testified on behalf of the step dad shock and was saying how the daughter was asking for it ECt always walking round in her night ware

Very sad I do believe the daughter actually had a baby by the dad and kept it very sad

You are not coming over as well as you might think you are. The legal profession is not beyond reproach and the more we duck questions and hide behind pronouncements the worse it is. There are serious problems with the reporting, investigation and prosecution of rape in this country; you only have to look at the statistics so see that.

When was rape a capital crime in the UK?

SuzanneUK Tue 14-Jan-14 18:58:59

When was rape a capital crime in the UK?

I wasn't referring to this sceptered isle but, to answer your question, rape ceased to be a capital offence in England in 1841.

Quoteunquote Tue 14-Jan-14 19:02:06

Devon and Cornwall police have run in the past campaigns, that deal with exactly this problem, a lot of it aimed at OAPs, who feeling they have been stupid in been conned keep quite,

The true extent of crime is underreported, because people feel they are to blame,

If the police force think the victim blame culture stops people coming forward and have funded campaigns to get people to speak up, they think there must be an issue.

WilsonFrickett Tue 14-Jan-14 19:04:58

There was a time and a place when, in a rape case, a lot of people thought everything that happened between the arrest and the hanging was "extraneous shit".

susanne care to explain your point? Because I'm not getting it.

sashh Tue 14-Jan-14 19:08:43

Leaving your windows open does make you more likely to be burgled. Walking around with expensive gadgets is certain areas make you more likely to be mugged.

What makes you more likely to be raped?

Being a woman.

Not wearing certain clothes, not being in a certain area, not drinking.

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