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To be really sad and upset. RIP Nelson Mandela :-(

(148 Posts)
LittlePeaPod Thu 05-Dec-13 22:35:39

I know I am not but wanted to share the sad news. Loss of a grat man and inspirational leader.

creighton Sun 08-Dec-13 13:41:16

the moral validity of what NM et al did is self evident. the only people who are required to eschew violence are oppressed groups. the oppressors are always allowed to keep their option on violence if they want to.

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 13:55:11

Yes I agree, Desmond Tutu said something quite similar wrt non-violence in an SA context. Its a great ideology but sometimes it fails, and you're then left with either violence or acceptance of oppression. Although it doesn't sound like nigella is actually a pacifist anyway.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 14:07:47

I am not south African, but I have lost friends to those from terrorist groups.

My friends did not support the regimes that the terrorists where fighting against, but according to Creighton they deserved to die because they have the wrong skin colour or political affiliations, or where in the wrong night clubs.

All because in creighton's eyes they couldn't possibly have been innocent.

creighton Sun 08-Dec-13 14:16:46

if they supported the regime through disinterest what do you think I should think?

JanineStHubbins Sun 08-Dec-13 14:17:57

Boney sorry for the loss of your friends. Were they killed in South Africa, or in other conflicts?

To be fair to creighton, I don't think she is speaking about any other situation other than the evil of the apartheid regime in SA.

I'm interested through: would you say the same about those killed by the Resistance in cafes, bars etc? Killed by terrorists?

creighton Sun 08-Dec-13 14:25:30

we are talking about SA

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 14:34:47

At the end of WW2 there were Israeli death squads that took people off the streets (dressed in their British uniforms to give it a tinge of authority) they took them to the woods and after a kangaroo court murdered them.

In South Africa the ANC pulled people from their homes and had a Kangaroo court and them set alight with flaming tyres around their necks (necklaces) A Winnie Mandela quote is "[W]ith our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country."

"I'm interested through: would you say the same about those killed by the Resistance in cafes, bars etc? Killed by terrorists?"

Would I say that innocents where killed by the resistance, yes I would.
I wouldn't say that your comparison is like for like.

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 14:42:25

It is possible to see that the ANC were morally entitled to use violence to counter the violent apartheid regime, without thinking everything that every ANC or liberation fighter ever did was acceptable. I disagree with Winnie's worst excesses. That doesn't mean I can't see that violent resistance was necessary to end apartheid.

Whistleblower0 Sun 08-Dec-13 14:42:53

i'm not south African, but i have lost friends to those from terrorist groups

Boney, it's very easy isin't it to declare after the event that your friends didn't support the regime, but what does that mean in reality??

Did they actively campaign against it?

The fact is, apartheid was able to not only survive, but in fact thrive, because at the very least, some white south africans stood by passively and allowed it to continue, and most in fact actively promoted and upheld it's practices.

creighton Sun 08-Dec-13 14:44:12

how many Africans were killed by the white south African regime through direct or indirect violence? were their names listed anywhere or do black deaths at white hands not matter to you?

JanineStHubbins Sun 08-Dec-13 14:44:16

Boney the Israeli death squads you mention weren't actually part of WW2 - the incidents you're talking about came later (and there wasn't even an attempt at a kangaroo court, if it's the Netanya incident you are referring to). The Jewish population in Palestine were introduced to political violence by the British before the war, who trained up local Jews in squads commanded by British officers to engage in 'pre-emptive counter-terrorism' against Arabs during the 36-39 revolt. It's all far, far more complicated than you allow for.

If you are not capable of seeing the moral gradations inherent in political violence - for instance, the difference between the French resistance blowing up a Parisian cafe frequented by Nazi officers but also used by ordinary French people and, say, the Bali bomb, then your view of the world is far too monochrome, imo.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 14:48:00


Would/Could that be taken to mean that those who supported the ANC shouldn't be linked or considered to have supported the part of the extremist ANC actions because they didn't stop it?

If so shouldn't the same rule be applied to the white South Africans that didn't support apartheid?

Or do we lump everybody in to the same box?

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 14:48:20

Why is the apartheid regime not also being blamed for those killed in the ANC campaign? It's clear who created and maintained the situation where nothing but violence could work.

creighton Sun 08-Dec-13 14:51:13

there are now few white south Africans who 'supported' apartheid, like there are few white americans who 'remember' segregation. it was probably all a fiction invented by the blacks with chips on their shoulders.

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 14:54:38

Boney first of all, the average white SA had much more power and opportunity to act than the average black SA. So they're not comparable. And I don't see passivity in the face of ANC violence to be in any way equivalent to passivity in the face of the violent apartheid regime, simply because the latter was the immeasurably greater evil. But yes, obviously anyone who didn't declare themselves opposed to either was passive in their face.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 14:57:21


They where there to support the anti-apartheid demonstrations.


Ah yes the reversal, Of course those that died at the hands of the regime mean something to me, I haven't said that they haven't, I suspect that the deaths of those at the hands of the regime mean more to me than those innocents killed by the ANC.


Sorry it should be "Israeli revenge squads" that were about after D-Day and towards the end of WW2.

"If you are not capable of seeing the moral gradations inherent in political violence"

I said that the situations where not comparable, not that I couldn't see the difference..

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 15:00:49


Yes. people enjoy rewriting history, its something that should not be allowed to happen.


So are both to be considered culpable by their being passive?

JanineStHubbins Sun 08-Dec-13 15:02:59

Boney Were your friends killed in ANC bombings?

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 15:08:19

Nope. Those who were passive towards or actively supported apartheid are are also responsible for ANC violence. This is because apartheid created a situation where violence was necessary to end it, whereas the ANC campaign didn't necessitate apartheid. So no boney, there is no equivalence- not in moral culpability, or in opportunity to take action.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 15:14:33


BoneyBackJefferson Sun 08-Dec-13 15:19:41


(linking to earlier in the thread and another poster) Do you consider the children to have been passive and are they culpable for apartheid?

Chunderella Sun 08-Dec-13 15:31:04

No, just adults. Adults who are culpable not only for apartheid deaths but also those during the armed struggle. Although it's not like black SA kids had the luxury of being able to remain outside the struggle anyway- the regime had no problem actively targeting them.

Whistleblower0 Wed 11-Dec-13 15:29:09

I had the pleasure of seeing a preview of a long walk to freedom last night,- the film about Mandela's life and struggle against arpartheid. It was truely moving. I'm actually surprised that the
ANC didn't turn to violence a lot sooner, considering how black south africans were treated by the white regime.

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