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to be very cross with a teenager who wouldn't get up for the remembrance service this morning

(90 Posts)
Notmyidea Sun 10-Nov-13 11:58:17

And tell her she needs to give up guides as she can't meet her obligations?

Andro Mon 11-Nov-13 17:46:23

If you make a commitment you should follow it through!

Minnieisthedevilmouse Mon 11-Nov-13 16:46:23

Fundamentally she joined guides and guiding for certain things, fun, camping etc. well there's other obligations expected via that organisation. Therefore she is bu. I agree she needs consequences and wider understanding of the organisation she has elected voluntarily to join explained.

Otherwise leave and join another one. Quite simple this one! smile

JohnnyBarthes Mon 11-Nov-13 13:00:54

Ds went btw, despite his extreme aversion to churchiness. It was non-negotiable.

JohnnyBarthes Mon 11-Nov-13 12:58:28

Pilgit's post sums it up.

WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 11-Nov-13 12:56:16

Attending parades and services are part of the obligation. It was because of the requirement to attend Sunday services that my DD decided not to continue with Guides.

DS is in Army Cadets. Attending the parades is part of that. If he didnt want to attend the different parades then I would be telling him that he lacked commitment.

You dont get to pick and choose with many of these organisations. You are either all in or all out. You dont just get to do the fun bits.

Many remembrance day parades now depend on the youth organisations to actually continue.

DS spent Friday evening ironing his kit and polishing his boots then poppy selling on Saturday and remembrance parade on Sunday. He see this as part and parcel of being an Army Cadet.

Unplastered Mon 11-Nov-13 12:55:34

Sparkly, it would not be nit picking at all :-)
Chances are they will all renew their promise fairly regularly anyway, probably thinking day will be the next 'official' time (22nd February).
I have got a group of Guides ready to make the Promise before Christmas and we will all be renewing our Promise at the same time - the Guide promise changed from 'to love my God' to 'to be true to myself and develop my beliefs' on 1st September.

teacherandguideleader Mon 11-Nov-13 12:47:59

I encouraged mine to go as a mark of respect (it is the one church parade I as an atheist go to).

Any who didn't I will assume had their reasons and would like to think they marked the occasion in another way. Church parade is not the only reason to do this and I would never force it.

SparklyFucker Mon 11-Nov-13 12:41:02

I can't wait for ds2 to be able to take a non-religious Beaver Promise - as it currently stands and for the next 6 weeks Scouting still discriminates on the basis of religion - members are required to believe in a higher deity/power - you cannot currently officially be an adult or child member of the Scouting movement if you are an atheist, as stated on the website. I'm also considering asking our Leader to re-invest ds1 with a non religious promise, but that might be nit picking a bit!

bonkersLFDT20 Mon 11-Nov-13 12:34:57

The conversation with my (Explorer scout) son went a bit like this:

DS - I was meant to go to the Remembrance Service today
Me - I know
DS - Don't you mind that I didn't go?
Me - Yes, I do, but I didn't want the hassle of badgering you to go, making sure your uniform was all ready, driving you there etc, just for you to be miserable
DS - That's the right approach
Me - No, it isn't, but I'm fed up with you not doing as I ask and sitting at your lap top whenever you can.
DS (silence).

I feel bad, but at 14 he's got to start taking the responsibility for stuff like this. I think he got the message.

Unplastered Mon 11-Nov-13 12:33:50

Sorry, sparklyfucker, cross post.

Unplastered Mon 11-Nov-13 12:32:49

The scout website states that Their religious policy encourages " 'Exploration and development' rather than Religious or faith specific education".
From January, Scouts will be able to Promise 'to uphold our Scout values' instead of 'duty to God' if they wish.
Read their website, theres been a few changes recently.

Freddiefrog Mon 11-Nov-13 12:31:47

Our service isn't held in church. There is a church service but Scouts aren't expected to attend.

They parade through our town, finishing at the war memorial where they have a short wreath laying service, 2 minutes silence, and the Last Post.

All Scouts (to a lesser extent Beavers and Cubs) are expected to attend, unless they have a very good reason. It's made very clear to everyone when they join what's expected of them. If they can get up in the morning to do the fun stuff, they can get up in the morning to do the less fun stuff

We parade once a year, we don't do St George's Day, it's just over an hour out of their lives once a year

SparklyFucker Mon 11-Nov-13 12:28:29

Though thankfully this suggests that the current religious policy will be dropped on 1st Jan next year, thank goodness!

GoldenGytha Mon 11-Nov-13 12:26:00

I was a Brownie, Guide then a Ranger,

It was not compulsory to attend Remembrance Services, but it was kind of expected that you would go, I always went, and so did my DDs when they were in these organisations.

Don't ever remember attending a St Andrew's Day service though.

I wear a poppy every year, as do my DDS, but I don't attend services any more, I think you can remember in your own way.

SparklyFucker Mon 11-Nov-13 12:25:31

Unplastered I'm very surprised you say that, it may be true of Guiding but you are so, so wrong about Scouting. The Scouting website itself states their position on religion - it is a religious organisation, and there is no option not to take the religious part of the Promise on investiture.

WillSingForCake Mon 11-Nov-13 12:24:13

I would be cross with her and make sure she understands why. Can't believe some of the excuses people are coming up with here. Teenagers bodyclocks meaning they need more sleep? So bloody what! Thousands of teenagers marched off to war and never came back, it's just one morning - get up and show some respect. And if the fact it's held in a church which means you avoid it, go to your local war memorial instead and take some time to remember those who made such a sacrifice.

Unplastered Mon 11-Nov-13 12:16:39

usualsuspect there is NO forced religion aspect in either guiding or scouting. Neither organisation is or has ever been a Christian (or any other religion) organisation. This is a misconception.

Unplastered Mon 11-Nov-13 12:11:00

I am a Guide leader of over 15 years.
Attending church parade for any reason is NOT compulsory, and Guide groups should not give rewards or incentives to turn up.
As a leader, I think YABU to ban your daughter from Guides for this, but as a parent, I think YANBU to expect your daughter to show some respect on this occasion. She didn't need to go to church to show respect.

Pilgit Sun 10-Nov-13 20:41:39

Guides and scouts generally feel that remembrance day is important to recognise due to the history of the organisations. Both movements were involved in the war effort in many parts of the world. Guiding and scouting are, at their heart about teaching our youth to think freely and be responsible members if society. I go and I I encourage my guides to go to pay tribute to those that have fought to allow us the freedom to gave this debate. My grandmother volunteered for the warsaw resistance with the rest of her scout unit. It is not about religion.

SockQueen Sun 10-Nov-13 20:00:57

If she had decided in advance (and told you) that she didn't want to go, I think that wouldn't be so bad. I'm a Brownie leader and parades were always optional for our girls - my current unit is a special one based in a hospital so it would not be possible to go. If she just couldn't be arsed to get out of bed then I have much less sympathy.

My school had a Remembrance Sunday service every year which the entire school, day pupils and boarders, was expected to attend. The only exceptions were those who were in the CCF, who went to the parade in town instead. There may have been a few conscientious objectors, though I was never aware of them, but casual non-attendance was very much frowned upon. I was in the choir and it was one of the most moving services we did every year. Several hundred grumpy teenagers dragging themselves out of bed and into school on a Sunday and then joining in sincerely with the service suggests it's hardly impossible because of their hormones...

Coupon Sun 10-Nov-13 19:42:43

> It's about learning the value of duty not religion; Leaders give up a huge amount & it's a small price for everyone to support these events.

Yes that's true. "Duty" isn't a word we hear much these days.

NotMeNotYouNotAnyone Sun 10-Nov-13 18:50:17

It's not about the religious aspect or war. It's about making a commitment and then not being arsed to follow it through.

I'm a guider and we can't force girls to attend. I saw a guide there this morning whose two brownie sisters were nowhere in sight, but they hadn't said they would be there so fine.

A lot of girls go to a service at their own church, or are with another parent somewhere else, or have other commitments. That's fine, we understand. But if you say you'll be there then you should be

cory Sun 10-Nov-13 16:46:59

What meditrina said.

There are those of us who feel deeply uncomfortable about Remembrance services and Poppy day because we feel the original respect and gratitude to those who died in WW1 and WW2 is being used to to engender support for later, morally questionable, wars of aggression; there is a strong suggestion that there is no difference between somebody who enlisted specifically to fight against fascism and somebody who takes wages to fight any random war that irresponsible politicians may decide to send them to. Some us feel there is a strong difference and that the world wars are being hi-jacked. iirc there was an article in one of the main papers the other day arguing this stand.

But any teen who genuinely feels this needs to get off their backside and explain how they feel. If you don't want to keep commitments you don't make them in the first place.

ilovesooty Sun 10-Nov-13 16:44:11

If you are her mother and are understandably angry with her I'd be interested to know how you've dealt with it (if you want to say of course)

Notmyidea Sun 10-Nov-13 16:40:26

I'm her mother.

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