To be utterly clueless as to how to handle dd8- talk me through how you would

[Retropear]

Dd8 can be difficult at home.She can be nasty and unreasonable to her brothers 10,rude and intolerant to all of us.She is also incredibly lazy and has a temper.She can be lovely,has a lovely qwerky personality and is amazingly kind and gentle with animals.

She is extremely unmaterialistic,not into sweets or gadgets.I obviously don't smack.She answers back to the death lately with eye rolling and hand flourishes. As a result little things generally turn into a big deal as I struggle to find ways to punish her that actually bother her.

Soooooo this morning after a hair brushing upset(I was apparently not being gentle enough,IMO I was and firmly told her so) which made us late she then threw her brothers book down the side of her bed as he was first at the sink for teeth brushing wtaf!Just why?

It took several repeat apologies to get one in the correct tone and then a load of belligerence. I then took her teddy off her so she could experience what it felt like.She screamed bloody murder and I ended up screaming back.She ended up losing a possible hot chocolate out for possible hard work and a sleepover because she doesn't give a shiny shit about her behaviour or the consequences.

I should have all the answers but I just don't.Twin boys were a doddle compared to this.Why the nastiness and time wasted on arguing,answering back etc?I have explained over and over that she makes little things 10 x worse.I have also explained that I won't let rudeness or spiteful acts go- she will be punished.

So talk me through it,where am I going wrong?How would you deal with her?

[Lonecatwithkitten]

My DD now nearly 10 has been like this for 2 years. I operate a zero tolerance policy no minor eye rolling or sarcastic comment is allowed. When we have a big bust up I wait till she is calm again and explain that I will not tolerate rude and disrespectful behaviour. I also discuss would she behave like this at school (no she wouldn't) then she should treat me in the same way she should treat her teachers.

[BeaWheesht]

Ds is 7 almost and a bit like this just now. I ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore. I don't demand apologies anymore because ime it just gives them another opportunity to be awkward and hurtful. I give attention to the wronged party. Re the hair brushing I'd give her the brush to do it herself and walk off and NOT nag her to do it. If she wants her hair to be tatty then so be it.

[Retropear]

Any ideas re punishments?

Do you think it's fair to dish out big punishments for misdemeanours such as I have described? Should I let things go as Bea suggests(would be a whole lot less exhausting so I'm tempted)?

Thing is I don't want her brothers thinking they have to put up with shite like that(spiteful comments too) or that it is ok.Worried they'll think it's unfair as they would be punished(the old magic no screen time works a treat).

She can be a lovely girl but is letting herself down big time.

[FunkyBoldRibena]

This is what I expect [keep it simple]>
This is what happens if you exceed those expectations [nice things]>
This is what happens when you don't [no nice things]>

Your choice.
Now, lets go make some muffins.

Refer to the three points before it kicks off and if it kicks off, just calmly tell her 'you know what happens if x, so lets not go there and lets get this done now and get off to school//bed/whatever.

[wigglesrock]

I thought for a minute it was your 8th daughter

I have 3 daughters 8, 6 & 2. I personally think you're punishments are too much. She's an eyeroller, I was, drove my Mum mad but she just told me to stop it, it didnt escalate. Just walk away & let her do her own hair.

Surely her & her brother could have sorted out the book throwing incident. Is she aware that you found her brothers "easier" than her? Does she feel the odd one out?

My dd who's the same age can be to use one of my Mums terms - insolent . She gets told to catch herself on & talk to me when she can do it politely, I don't punish her per se - I certainly don't take away treats for her "tone".

I know with mine, & from taking to some school mums, it's all got very slammy doors & pulling faces. It's hard to be 8, your body starting to change, your moods are all over the place, you still feel like you want your cuddles & kisses & bedtime stories but in the words of mine you "can't wait to be a teenager"

[SoonToBeSix]

I really don't like the use of the word punishment , it doesn't mean the same thing as discipline. You should be trying to help your dd to change not to be miserable.

[Retropear]

Her hair is greasier at the moment,could well be hormones(other mums have mentioned challenging behaviour at home)but tbh I have found the boys easier although neither are perfect and one in particular was challenging.The boys don't seem to want to hurt so much iykwim,they also don't seem so manipulative.They seem to learn from their mistakes too.

[Retropear]

Soon I have tried to help her to change(hours of talking/ explaining) but when you see her do and say nasty things and cause hurt it's hard to just let it go without consequences.

Why should the boys(and us)have to put up with it?

[youarewinning]

I'm a fan of natural consequences as opposed to punishment.

So your brushing her hair and she complains it's too hard. Repeat the request to do so gently in the way you'd like her to talk to you. Then tell her you'll be more gentle. If she continues you very calmly state she'd be better off doing it herself as she knows if it hurts or not and then walk away. Do not engage until she asks you nicely to do it. Ignore all actions that are not done in an appropriate manner including eye rolling.

It's a natural consequence that if she's rude or disrespectful people won't want to talk to her - it would be the same with friends too.

If she throws her brothers things ignore, then when her brother is free or she asks you to do something calmly tell her your do it in x amount of time as you need to help her brother retrieve x etc.

I would also not nag in the morning - I can garuntee walking into school late one morning and having to say it's her fault for being rude will make her think again about doing it.

Btw - my DS is 9 so I know a lot of children this age and a bit older - lots of them are going through a phase ATM.

[trish5000]

How long has she been like this?

[Kinnane]

Where does she hear/copy those nasty comments from!

Did you apologise for hurting her while doing her hair?

Long talks with your lovely daughter and maybe outings with her on her own.

Never compare her with her brothers and let them handle their own differences as much a possible.

Rolling eyes and waving hands are just part of growing-up.

I would never take away her teddy, she must have been heartbroken.

".... several repeat apologies ..." I find that really sad - why not accept the first.

Shouting at her ...........is not good.

[earlyriser]

Can i just add (from bitter experience) punishments do not work. They will only give your daughter ammunition against you. When you punish you automatically put yourself in the position of 'attacker' and her in the role of 'victim'. This only reinforces their belief that you are the one in the wrong.
I wholeheartedly agree with youarewinning natural consequences all the way. Your job as a parent is to provide the brush, her job is to use it!

[EyeOfNewtBigtoesOfFrog]

I think you're letting it escalate to a point where you feel really angry and stressed. Not judging you for that, I have so been there! But I think others are right, this makes things into a bigger deal than they need to be.

Keep it calm, keep consequences natural and minor - eg with the hair, tell her you'll try to be more gentle if she can ask nicely - if she's still not happy, explain she can do it herself, but remind her (nicely) that if it's left tangled it will get worse and be a mess which she will have to cope with. Then leave it.

Carry out consequences calmly, but make sure they are not OTT or unreasonable - eg you might call off an outing if she's being rude and stroppy, by saying it's OK, we won't go as I can't take you into a cafe behaving like this, we will leave it for another time when you are being nice and calm. But not taking away the teddy and suchlike as it's not really a realistic consequence of what she's done and will wind her up. With the book, you could maybe say she will be retrieving it and giving it back to DB before leaving for school and if that makes her late she can explain why to the teacher.

In other words, each consequence reflects what really happens in life - if you behave appallingly you won't be welcome in a cafe, if you damage someone's property you have to fix it - and gives her the opportunity to do better to put things right.

[Beastofburden]

I wonder if she has suddenly grown up a bit (I know that sounds odd). Having your hair brushed and your teddy confiscated is part of being quite young. Girls are older than boys when they are 8.

So maybe I would remove the triggers- let her get up by herself, do her own hair (if she can't cope, she can choose between being grateful for help or getting a pixie cut like emma Watson ).

And perhaps move her onto a more grown up mode. She sounds a bit bored. Is she old enough to have riding lessons, care for a dog properly, etc? Obviously, dont just dole out treats while she is still being a shit. talk about them when she isn't and say that as she gets older and more responsible, this is what older girls do.

[moogalicious]

A bit judgemental kinnane but I agree with the one to one time. This has really worked for me and my dd. We were at rock bottom, with violent outbursts and after years of her behaviour.

What works for us is:

One to one time

Pick your battles - if she won't let you brush her hair, let her do it herself.

I ignore the continual moaning in the morning

Natural consequences to a degree - my dd refused to go to her piano lesson, so I pretended to called the teacher with the intention of her explaining why we wouldn't be going. She refused to take her pe kit to school, so she got in trouble at school.

Time out, for me and her to calm down

Don't make her apologise over and over again just to get the right tone

I have to say, I do use 'punishment' if her behaviour is extreme usually loss of computer time.

[moogalicious]

Oh, I never remove the one to one time as a punishment - it's sacred

[mrsjay]

ok I think you can get her to brush her own hair she is 8 if she needs help she can ask for it and you can attempt a tidy up

with the eye rolling you ask her WHy she is doing it you do not get into a discussion while she is being like that you tell her to stop or you ask her to leave the room if she can not behave
time out basically short and sweet though not for a long while

you talk to her about how she speaks to people and you ask her if you would like Mum to speak to her like that talk about hurt feelings, and dont put up with it, and 8 is coming out of infanthood and going into pre adolescence iyswim she is growing up let her do it but do not accept rudeness and bad manners.

[Kinnane]

moogalicious Totally agree with all you've said.

[diddl]

Are you talking about me & my daughter at that age?

I always thought that my older sibling was the favourite & I was just the one that "made up the numbers"-not the really wanted firstborn.

She was never shouted at, it seemed.

I always was, whatever I did, it seemed.

Is she trying to establish her place in the family/get attention?

It seems that she gets punishment after punishment-where's the incentive to be good?

Ignore as much as you can & stop escalating it.

She's perhaps struggling with growing up as well-being expected to do more & take on more & take on more responsibility at school, for example.

Might it seem to her that her brothers exclude her or they're very close & she's left out?

[JuliaScurr]

is she too old for penny in jar for good behaviour/out for bad? save up for sleepover or hot chocolate. you can do it per hour or per action

[mrsjay]

I agree with the posters who are saying natural consequences but i just didnt know it was called that [blush I am a believer in actions/reactions too

[JuliaScurr]

not literally save up pennies :) but eg 10 whatevers to get a reward. Turns it positive and she always gets another chance

[fairy1303]

Oh god OP, we are the same here. I had put it down to new baby but I think it's a mix of that and the age.

Last week I stopped a friend coming round for tea - she wasn't bothered.
I'm at my wits end.

It the eye rolling, stropping over nothing, rudeness.

This morning, after I asked her to wait until I had finished what I was doing and then I would do her hair, she said 'I can do what I want' in a singsong voice - she completely denied it, tears, tantrums etc etc.

I am just sticking to firm boundaries, making sure she has lots of opportunities to discuss things that have upset her

And my new favourite 'can you think of a way to say that politely?' every single time she is rude - she is already getting bored.

Good luck

[mrsjay]

Fwiw bot my dds were like this at 8/9 it must be a thing sigh I think they were just easing us in to teenage years

[mrsjay]

both*