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to think this analogy Gove makes is a bit hypocritical?

(109 Posts)
kim147 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:59:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 19:08:37

'And I have not heard any solutions from the right for that problem.'

The solution is economic growth. Cheaper energy, cheaper fuel, and end to green taxes and subsidies that disincentivise growth and industrial production. We need jobs and work and industry not crappy zero-hour contracts, that will create wealth and allow people to live well and earn a living wage.

englishteacher78 Sat 19-Oct-13 19:08:43

Oh dear lord - how on earth can anyone describe Gove as a progressive or a socialist.

longfingernails Sat 19-Oct-13 19:09:49

BrianWont School Direct has expanded in scope. PGCEs have been deliberately marginalised.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 19:21:07

This is from one of Gove's speeches

"But two particular individuals have influenced me more than any others.

The Italian Marxist thinker - and father of Euro-Communism – Antonio Gramsci."

Listen to what Gove actually says, not what he does. Because Gove is all over teh place with what he does. He changes his mind and u-turns all the time, so there is no constancy in his actions. But he underlying thought and speeches often remain consistent and with this socialist, progressive nonsense of the "common evil of inequality" he has progressive influences and says that the Marxist Gramsci was one of his greatest influences.

He u-turns in his actions, but even his thoughts are muddled and incoherent, yet the progressive fallacy in them remains constant.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 19-Oct-13 19:21:44

"The way to achieve that is through a competitive, rigourous education system which does not tolerate bad teachers, and insists on high standards"

unless you know what gove means by "rigour" the majority of your sentence is pointless.

pointyfangs Sat 19-Oct-13 19:22:39

Claig those aren't solutions, they're aspirations. Nice ones, but not ones that are being delivered by our current government.

Cheap energy and cheap fuel - how are they going to make that happen, with a growing economical world competing for shrinking reserves of fossil fuels?

Jobs and work - well, we've all seen how letting 'the market' dictate wages has worked , haven't we? The fact is that employers will pay as little as they can get away with paying, and successive governments have let them. The only person speaking out for a living wage in the Tory Party is Boris Johnson. The rest of them just defend zero hours contracts as 'creating a flexible labour force'. and meanwhile they chip away at the few rights employees do have in the UK - the weakest employment rights in Europe, by the way.

I share your aspirations, but the right which you worship will not deliver them. We need a new political movement - let's call it pragmatism.

greenbananas Sat 19-Oct-13 19:30:02

There is good research into how children learn. I have yet to see any evidence that Gove has read any of this research, or listened to anyone who has.

What he is doing is irresponsible. The unions are full of teachers who care about children and have studied (at degree level or higher) how best to teach them. Not listening to teachers is arrogant at best, positively criminal at worst.

The poster who has 12 children whose expected levels have been inflated has a very valid point. Either she loses pay and prestige, or the children get an education which is not suited to them and go through life feeling like failures.

It's a grim situation. I have done some youth work among "school failures" and also worked with young people who have been kicked out of school. Gove is storing is up massive problems for the future.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 19:30:40

'Cheap energy and cheap fuel - how are they going to make that happen, with a growing economical world competing for shrinking reserves of fossil fuels?'

Shale gas and remove green taxes and other taxes on our fule so that the cost becoes the true cost not the one inflated with all the taxes. Recover lost revenue by reclaiming it from the banks whom we gave billions to.

'The only person speaking out for a living wage in the Tory Party is Boris Johnson'

That is just grandstanding too. The artificial "living wage" is nonsense, how wil they achieve it. in this economic climate, businesses will go bust, they are on the verge already. Real living wage comes from wage inflation which follows on from the creation of more jobs which leads to a labour shortage which leads to employers paying higher wages to attract staff. The way to achieve that is to stimulate the economy.

I'm not saing that what the tories have done is right. I am saying that some of the Tories are actually progressives and think that the greatet problem is "the common evil of inequality". The real greatest problem is employment and stimulating the economy. if teh Tories concentrated on that instead of focusing on progressive nonsense such as artificaily created living wages and inequality, then we would see a recovery.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 19-Oct-13 19:32:07

"School Direct has expanded in scope"

A method by which teachers (qualified) teach people to become teachers. Who will be blamed when (if) it fails?

I do know that it won't be the half baked pillock that brought it in.

sarine1 Sat 19-Oct-13 19:38:46

The trouble is that there IS no simple solution to inequality, under-performance, or even maximising each child's attainment. It's NOT SIMPLE!!
But Gove would have people believe that it IS simple - get rid of evil LAs, under performing teachers, introduce the marketplace, test children within an inch of their lives and 'rank' schools with ever changing criteria and that will bring about the transformation of education. Simples..
I've worked for 40 years in state education (in schools and evil LAs) and I see on a daily basis fantastic child centred education. Of course it's not always perfect - few national systems (health, law etc) are.
I am so glad to be at the end of my career and really fear for this generation of children at the mercy of these appalling policies.

englishteacher78 Sat 19-Oct-13 19:44:14

Gove is not a socialist of any kind - his alleged liking of Gramsci is a red herring. To me he appears to be someone trying to become the next leader of the Tory Party. He's trying to get the old guard on side by going for two perceived Thatcherite techniques - union bashing and privatisation.

pointyfangs Sat 19-Oct-13 19:58:11

Shale gas and remove green taxes and other taxes on our fule so that the cost becoes the true cost not the one inflated with all the taxes. Recover lost revenue by reclaiming it from the banks whom we gave billions to.

claig I don't disagree with that idea, but it's really quite a progressive one, you know. grin

Whathaveiforgottentoday Sat 19-Oct-13 20:15:03

"Gove has introduced performance related pay. He has gotten rid of the useless PGCE qualification, venerated by the darlings of the left for indoctrinating its bland socialist homogeneity onto its bland socialist adherents. He has dessicated the power of the NUT/NASUWT. All very worthy achievements."

I'd better let my 2 PGCE students know that the course they've just started on has been gotten rid of. Performance related pay hasn't come in yet. What power has the unions lost? How many incorrect statements can you cram into 1 paragraph.

Coldlightofday Sat 19-Oct-13 20:19:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 20:21:26

This is from Gove's speech and is about his hero, the Marxist Antonio Gramsci


Destined not merely to perpetuate social differences but to crystallise them.

He could have been describing what has happened in Britain in the last forty years. The nation which invented the concept of meritocracy, where the idea of the career open to talent had propelled social and economic progress has seen social mobility stall. And then move backwards. Wherever you look - Cabinets or Shadow Cabinets - newspaper editorial conferences or FTSE 100 boardrooms - the nation's galleries or bishop's palaces - the positions of power and influence are overwhelmingly held by the privately-educated or the children of middle class professionals. The social differences which existed in our society before the Nineteen-Sixties have - in all too many cases - not just been perpetuated but crystallised.

And it is impossible to reflect on this entrenching of inequality without also reflecting on the educational philosophy which has been so dominant during this period."

He pretends that the reason social mobility has declined is because of progressive education and child-centred learning etc i.e. it is the teachers' fault and the Marxist blob etc. But the real reason that social mobility declined is the scrapping of grammar schools in many areas, so that working class and middle class children like Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Alastair Campbell etc who had once been fortunate enough to go to grammar schools and compete with the likes of the privately educated but often less intelligent children like Tony Blair, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Harriet Harman, could no longer go to grammars amd could no longer compete with the children in the top fee-paying schools.

Gove does not support a return of grammars to help less economically advantaged but far brighter children compete with the children of the moneyed elite.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 20:25:34

'Throughout the twentieth century - and in particular since 1967 and the publication of the Plowden Report - the new educational orthodoxy was progressive. The role - and authority - of the teacher and traditional subject knowledge was undermined. The teacher was demoted from being "the sage on the stage" to a "guide by the side". Didactic become a pejorative term.'

More rubbish. I went to school in the years after 1967 and I don't recognise this as a picture of what went on in schools.

englishteacher78 Sat 19-Oct-13 20:25:53

John Major was not a grammar boy. He famously has very poor qualifications actually.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 20:36:04

Gove then quotes another left wing influence of his, E.D. Hirsch and then he quotes from another author

"As Rose points out in his work, housemaids read Dickens and Conrad and kitchen maids saved up money to attend classical music concerts. The servant girl Dorothy Burnham, who grew up in care, "found herself in Keats, Tennyson and Arnold", confessing,"

This is like some rose-tinted scene out of "Upstairs, Downstairs". He is basing policy on a few outliers that were not representative of most peoples' lives.

'In 1940, on average, boys from every background were reading six books a month and girls over seven.'

There was no TV in those days. Does he want us to turn off our TVs, unplug our computers and bin our ipads?

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 20:43:13

The more I read of what Gove says, the more I think that he has one policy for education - turn the clock back to the 1940s before television and before computers. Let the workers in McDonalds read Chaucer and Milton and watch our country's economic performance increase against countries like Singapore who use computers and probably don't read much Chaucer anymore.

The policy is like some Peter Pan flight of fancy, wishing that we could return to bygone days when the workers down the mines read Keats and Britannia ruled the waves.

That's it. Let's see if it successful.

englishteacher78 Sat 19-Oct-13 20:45:09

Gove is NOT left wing. Selective quoting from left wingers doesn't make him left wing.
He gave up any socialist leanings a long time ago!

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 20:49:26

'He gave up any socialist leanings a long time ago!'

I very much hope so, but I'm starting to wonder. He doesn't seem to have mentioned any right wing thinkers to go along with the Marxists that he admires.

englishteacher78 Sat 19-Oct-13 20:52:52

If he was so socialist/Marxist he wouldn't use those as insults when talking to and about the teaching unions.
He is a slimy weasel with no real principles.

DorisIsAPinkDragon Sat 19-Oct-13 21:14:33

There is only one word for Gove


He doesn't want early 20th century education but 19th century (If he could bring back flogging that would be top of the list !).

He has removed the speaking and listening for English GCSE (skills understandable and useful in a workplace with presentation and phone skills needed in business) and instead mandated that all pupils should be able to use a fountain pen! I despair the only time I have ever used a fountain pen since school was in the forces.

Those who fail to see how he is destroying education should be ashamed of allowing their tunnel vision to cloud what little sight they have.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 21:25:30

'and instead mandated that all pupils should be able to use a fountain pen!'

You are joking, aren't you?

Has Gove got shares in the last remaining British fountain pen company?

DorisIsAPinkDragon Sat 19-Oct-13 21:43:45

Sadly not!

Apparently the email arrived in the last 2 weeks. My friend who teaches in a secondary was not happy ranting.

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