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to think this analogy Gove makes is a bit hypocritical?

(109 Posts)
kim147 Sat 19-Oct-13 11:59:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

butterflyroom Sat 19-Oct-13 15:41:54

I would happily beat him to unconsciousness with a rolled up Phonics Screening Check booklet. Twat!

Blissx Sat 19-Oct-13 18:03:03

I think I quite like you, bronya! grin

Blissx Sat 19-Oct-13 18:03:49

And butterflyroom smile

kim147 Sat 19-Oct-13 18:05:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lifeissweet Sat 19-Oct-13 18:10:34

Well, Kim. The pilots are well trained, granted. However, the flight attendants were all laid off as they were merely 'support staff' so not making enough impact on the progress of the flight to justify their existence.

Talkinpeace Sat 19-Oct-13 18:15:47

volunteer airline?

greenbananas Sat 19-Oct-13 18:22:50

He's a worry, isn't he?

It is frightening how one man can make such a massive difference to teachers, the education system and the future of our children / society.

changeforthebetter Sat 19-Oct-13 18:23:32

I heart lifeissweet grin

longfingernails Sat 19-Oct-13 18:25:50

Gove is marvellous, but yes, this particular analogy is flawed.

But on the whole, if you introduce competition and allow new experimental ideas to determine teachine philosophy, then some of those new ideas will fail. That is OK, and expected. However, other ideas will succeed, and be copied. A culture of innovation drives up standards, but not necessarily for particular innovators. It's not a point a politician can make, but it is nonetheless true.

However, Gove has single handedly turned around the education of this country, and deserves great praise.

I love the fact that performance will now be the guarantor of promotion for teachers, rather than seniority. I love the fact that school control is being wrested away from the dreaded LEAs. I love the fact that Gove insists on rigour for all, not just those privileged enough to be able to pay for their childrens' education. I love the fact that Gove won't tolerate the bog standard comprehensive model. And I adore the fact that all the NUT/NASUWT blowhards can do is whine listlessly.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 18:32:49

"I think there's no crime greater than lying to children – and that's why we need to tell them the truth."


"The solution, Gove said, was for the victims of income inequality to be "placed in a great school with a great teacher. There really is no limit to what those children can achieve."

Fine words, but there are not enough great schools with great teachers, so the solution is not as easy as that.

"One of the things I would say to union leaders is: why are you putting the interests of adults ahead of the needs of children?"

This is the usual tactic of placing guilt on the adults. If the adults do not make a stand to protect their terms and conditions, then eventually adults will leave and that will not serve the needs of children.

But Gove's biggest mistake is the following espousal of left wing type rhetoric and quoting Martin luther King etc. It is all great grandstanding stuff but it is socialism and Tory voters won't accept a non-meritocracy where preferential treatment is given to children based on their socio-economic.

"Quoting liberally from the speeches of Martin Luther King, Gove upbraided his American audience for their country's income inequality and the effect it had on the children of the poor.

During the last 20 years in England, social mobility had gone backwards, Gove said. "It's a tragedy for me that in America income inequality has [also] grown, and that despite the efforts of so many it's still the case that if you are a child of colour you are half as likely to graduate from high school as a white child in this country.

"One hundred and fifty years after the Gettysburg address, 50 years after Martin Luther King's speech 'I have a dream', it's still the case that America and Britain are houses divided by inequality and lack of opportunity."

The US and the UK were divided internally by a "common evil" of inequality, Gove said. "Both our countries have great educational institutions of which we can be proud … but in both our countries access to those great educational institutions, those universities and schools, is rationed and restricted, increasingly, to those who live in upscale neighbourhoods, have parents who have access to connections, and are supported by stable families."

This sort of stuff will go down well with Labour voters, but won't go down well with readers of the Daily Mail.

"The solution, Gove said, was for the victims of income inequality to be "placed in a great school with a great teacher."

How is he going to do that? Is he going to restrict the places of more able children just because they come from higher income families.

Gove won't even support academic selection which is what many Tory voters believe in because it is meritocratic, but he seems to want to provide some form of positive discrimination for those who are less advantaged.

If he carries on like that, the Daily Mail reader will not back him and he won't become Prime Minister for the Tories, but he might become Prime Minister and leqader of the Labour Party.

Lara2 Sat 19-Oct-13 18:33:50

I hope you're wearing a hard hat and are very good at ducking quickly longfingernails because you are going to need the equipment and the skill!!!

Gove has single handedly undermined and demoralised all who work in schools and needs to listen to people who really do know what they are talking about. He is monumentally arrogant and sadly will never see the damage he has done.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 19-Oct-13 18:36:58


"However, Gove has single handedly turned around the education of this country"

Evidence please.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 19-Oct-13 18:39:03


"I love the fact that Gove insists on rigour for all"

Can you link or quote gove's definition of rigour?

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 18:41:21

"common evil" of inequality

So inequality is now "evil", and equality is the holy grail. Is Gove a Marxist? Is he a progressive? Did he agree with the speeches of Thatcher or with those of Ralph Miliband?

Gove is all over the place, he has thought nothing through. He holds contradictory positions and tries to play to different galleries at the same time. He has made more u-turns than a joyrider in a hot hatchback. If he wants to lead the Tory Party, he ought to follow Thatcher's advice

"U turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning".

pointyfangs Sat 19-Oct-13 18:41:44

So claig how would you address inequality? Or do you think it is perfectly fine that we have this huge gulf between those who are born into favourable circumstances and those who are not, when other countries seem to manage to narrow this gap rather than widening it? There's nothing meritocratic about enshrining privilege.

I want all children to have the best education for them - and that means dealing with all the things that all governments from both side of the political divide have done wrong over the years.

Yes to selective education - but only if that means selecting into excellent and well respected vocational education as well. All children have talents - we in the UK are dreadful at identifying talent in non-academic areas because we only respect academia. That has to change. All children should have their talents catered for, underpinned by good business English and maths for all. Germany manages it, why can't we? We can't afford to have people leave the education system with nothing - and Gove's policies do nothing whatsoever to address this problem. I haven't heard a single word from him about vocational education.

pointyfangs Sat 19-Oct-13 18:42:45

And I agree with all of those who are asking for a definition of 'rigour' in education. 3 1/2 years and we still haven't had one.

longfingernails Sat 19-Oct-13 18:48:19

BoneyBackJefferson In terms of rigour: examples include the fact that grade inflation is no longer tolerated, and the push to end the 'coasting' culture by not settling for a C at GCSE as a measure of success.

Gove has introduced performance related pay. He has gotten rid of the useless PGCE qualification, venerated by the darlings of the left for indoctrinating its bland socialist homogeneity onto its bland socialist adherents. He has dessicated the power of the NUT/NASUWT. All very worthy achievements.

throckenholt Sat 19-Oct-13 18:52:04

I read it as you would want a pilot that had been through the "test them to within an inch of their lives" because they will have a price of paper to prove what they can do, rather than one who has been to a "touchy feely lets make people feel confident in their abilities and not worry about testing them" approach.

He seems to think it is an either or situation - can't possibly have a combination of both. Can't have a system that builds self esteem and self worth and then at strategic places along the way (like at the end !) test on the big picture and some random details to see if they know what they are doing.

He does have a track record of contradicting himself - at least as education secretary - never seems to have any lasting effect on him though.

If he ever becomes PM I think I will have to emigrate.

longfingernails Sat 19-Oct-13 18:53:03

claig I agree that inequality is a false prospectus.

What we need is equality of opportunity. The way to achieve that is through a competitive, rigourous education system which does not tolerate bad teachers, and insists on high standards. It is this which Gove so rightly strives for.

The Spirit Level is ivory tower hocus pocus.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 19-Oct-13 18:53:17

"fact that grade inflation is no longer tolerated, and the push to end the 'coasting' culture by not settling for a C at GCSE as a measure of success."

neither is proof of that gove "single handedly turned around the education of this country" both are number crunching exercises.

and I ask again what is gove's definition of "rigour"

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 18:56:35

'Gove upbraided his American audience for their country's income inequality'

I think Gove has got a cheek to upbraid the Americans and call himself a tory. Gove is not a Tory, he plays at being one, he is a progressive.

There will always be income inequality. That's what America is and always has been about. It is the land of opportunity where the American Dream is to strike it rich. That is why America produces its Steve Jobs and Bill Gates etc. Not everyone can be equal to them. Income inequality does not matter, what matters is that everybody has enough income to live well. What those at the top get in a land of opprtunity and enterprise is irrelevant if those at the bottom get enough to live well.

If Gove really really believes in the "common eveil of inequality" then why doesn't he donate most of his earnings to charity?

He plays to the gallery, he is a good actor, he can deliver funny lines, but I am beginning to wonder if he is a progresive in Tory clothes.

He says
"The solution, Gove said, was for the victims of income inequality to be "placed in a great school with a great teacher."

No it isn't, that will only create injustice and resentment from the middle classes and will increase the divide as middle classes set up private and free schools in order to maintain a meritocratic justice.

The solution is to improve all our schools and to have trained teachers, not ex-soldiers in the classroom to instil discipline. The solution is to work with the unions and teaching profession and together come up with plans to improve education. The solution is not to grandstand, spout socialist nonsense and alienate teachers and unions.

And what is Gove's definition of "a great school with a great teacher"? I hope it is not Al-Madinah.

neverputasockinatoaster Sat 19-Oct-13 19:02:01

Gove is an arse.

I currently work in year 2. I have 12 kids that, based on previous data, are expected to get a level 3.......... They have been given that level because their previous teachers were pushed to meet targets. I am finding that perhaps they are not ready to be at the level they are assessed at. If I don't get them to level 3 I will be slated and put on capability...... I am pushing those kids for all I am worth and I won't lie at the end of the year but I can see how tempting it would be.

The situation I describe is a direct result of the results based system we work in.

I am sick to death of my profession being governed by a man who has a 'bright' idea in the shower one morning and makes it policy by tea time.

Gove is an arse.

BrianWont Sat 19-Oct-13 19:03:17

longfingefnails what are you on about? The PGCE hasn't gone anywhere.

pointyfangs Sat 19-Oct-13 19:04:40

What those at the top get in a land of opprtunity and enterprise is irrelevant if those at the bottom get enough to live well.

But they don't, claig. Not in the US, not in the UK. And I have not heard any solutions from the right for that problem. Because they don't want everyone to live well, they want a pool of desperate people who will do anything - zero hours, no rights - just so that they can have some sort of income.

The people you vilify as socialists see this. You don't.

claig Sat 19-Oct-13 19:05:20

Yet another Gove u-turn.

"Graduates who scrape a third class degree are to be offered bursaries to train as teachers following a U-turn by the Education Secretary"

I can see why he chose the flying analogy, he knows a lot about flying, he is constantly flying by the seat of his pants.

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