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to think this is very disruptive??

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macdoodle Sun 13-Oct-13 15:52:21

I probably am being unreasonable and am prepared to hear it.
My DD1 has just started secondary school, she is in the "more able class" (this is what its called by the school hmm).
In this class, of about 20 odd, there is a boy with SN. He has an assistant for every lesson, and from what my DD tells me I guess he must have some form of autism.
But every single day, she is coming home with stories of what "X" has done. Thinks like having tantrum, which takes 20mins to calm down disrupting the lesson, shouting at the teacher, grabbing or hitting another child (and once a teacher), throwing all his books and stuff on the floor (numerous occasions), storming out of lessons etc etc.
Now the kids all seem to think this is hysterical (and great fun that almost every lesson is disrupted by "X"), but every day I am a bit hmm, it just sounds very disruptive, and DD is starting to sound more annoyed than thinking its funny.
She does however say that is is clearly very bright indeed.
I know he has just as much right to be taught, but at the cost of disrupting a whole class of children? AIBU?? I can't quite decide TBH, and so far it doesnt appear to be affecting DD1's abilities, but we are only a term in.

Trigglesx Tue 15-Oct-13 13:57:54

Okay. Yeah. Patronising. Definitely. Not sure if that's what you were going for <shrug> but that's what you got.

I hope that his parents are the kind that are aware that more effort has to be made by their SN child, too, combined with presumed understanding

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying the parents should be GRATEFUL that more effort is being made? Because that's kind of how it's coming off. confused And I certainly don't feel I should feel grateful that society accepts my child - especially his school. It should just... be done. Because it's the right thing to do.

The OP's child IS tolerating, along with the rest of the class, the child with SN. She doesn't appear to be teasing or pointing out the "difference" of the SN child, to the child when said child has one of his triggering moments. If she did, that would be teasing, surely? To suggest that by talking to her mother about the disruption in class caused by the behaviour of the child with SN does not mean that the OP's child is "intolerant" is not progressive.

The OP stated the children find it "hysterical" and "great fun" - that leaves it somewhat open for interpretation, but as the OP's DD is coming home with tales of what the child is doing every day, I suspect that the child himself is not "in" on the joke. It does sound a bit like telling tales with relish, and if my child was doing that, I would be making very clear that instead of finding the child's behaviour amusing, it would be more appropriate to either be helpful or encourage other classmates to be supportive rather than laughing at the child. I certainly wouldn't encourage my child to spread tales about another child. I'm afraid I don't see that as tolerating.... and tolerating isn't the goal anyway. Acceptance (and support if possible) is.

Maybe the parents and teachers should think outside the box and have some kind of "getting to know you" session between Sn pupil and non SN pupils.

It's possible the parents do not want his medical information discussed with all and sundry. It's a fine line between sharing information and disclosing confidential information. I wouldn't want to see a parent pressured into this type of thing. I certainly wouldn't want to be.

They are just aware that their children are "special needs", not "more special than other kids".

First of all... it's not "children are special needs"... children HAVE special needs. It is not the sum total of their existence you know. And this: not "more special than other kids" is exactly why I am growing to hate the term "special needs." My son is disabled. I'm not going to soft pedal it by using a more fuzzy term of special needs. He is disabled. I've never claimed he is more special than other kids in society.

But it's my responsibility to make sure he gets the education he's legally entitled to, and if that means standing up to the school or the LA or someone in the general public that is putting up roadblocks to him getting that education, then so be it. Not really that complicated, is it?

ProphetOfDoom Tue 15-Oct-13 13:59:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

frumpet Tue 15-Oct-13 14:00:24

Its a tough one this one . Mainstream may well be the ideal environment for the child with SN , it may be that it is simply a case of him needing a little bit more time to get used to the big changes that going to secondary school entail , he has support but they will be learning about him and he about them , he may have had the same person supporting him throughout primary , so another big change . All people with SN are different so even a very experienced TA is going to take a while to get to know a child sufficently to be able to help them keep their behaviour on an even keel and then not always .
Yes children without SN in mainstream should be tolerant of those with SN . But i would have thought it is equally important for the child with SN to learn to moderate their behaviour . I appreciate that that is something that they are not always capable of achieving , but inclusion isnt simply about educational learning , its about all aspects of life , social etc .
It is so sad that he has no friends sad

YouTheCat Tue 15-Oct-13 14:01:11

Well said, Triggles.

I'm terribly intolerant... intolerant of people who spout shite about disability that have no clue what they are talking about.

Trigglesx Tue 15-Oct-13 14:01:22

on my performance management under training I put ' Mumsnet!


AmberLeaf Tue 15-Oct-13 14:12:30

Most of the parents that I know with SN child in mainstream school are not as "defensive" as some on here

I'm not as 'defensive' in real life as I am on here, but that is probably to an extent because in real life people are less candid with their views.

Auntie13 Tue 15-Oct-13 14:13:50

I've name-changed for this but have been posting on this thread. I'm happy to tell my username to anyone who asks by pm.

I have changed some details because I don't want to out myself or make my family easily recognisable but this is, I think, a "good news" story.

Nearly 40 years ago S was born to a close family member. We are a family of teachers and health workers and we all felt, from 1 month on, that not all was well with S. Pretty soon Health Visitors and other professionals picked up that there was considerable developmental delay. Those of us working or training in education felt there was more to it than that. Much research in dry academic books followed. I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten the name of the book that was our turning point but S conformed to every autistic "label" available then.

Our LEA, at that time, did not acknowledge autism as a condition. S went to a specialist nursery and then infant school and struggled constantly. There were many, many meltdowns, despite all the staff doing all they could think of. She did learn to read a little, thanks to some patient teachers. Autism was new to them as well. S became more and more rigid in her thinking and increasingly inflexible. The home situation was a nightmare for all of them. Their lives revolved around S's obsessions, needs and wants. Family outings were sometimes over before they began because S's sister leaned too far into her seat. The family was close to breaking point.

All of us who knew anyone, anywhere of any influence pulled as many strings as we could and bombarded every agency with demands for help for S and the family. Eventually S was found a place out of county as a weekly boarder in a specialist school. The LEA were persuaded to fund it.

The first months were very difficult for everyone. The wonderful staff slowly eased S's rigidity, tackling one thing at a time and gave us all advice about how to help S at home.

S continued as a weekly boarder until she was 16 and then she was given a place on a life skills course with our LEA. By then she had become much less afraid and rigid and was open to learning new skills. There were still meltdowns but S had come to understand what they are and didn't dwell too much afterwards.

It hasn't been all smooth sailing and there have been hiccups along the way but now S is living in a bedsit in sheltered housing with 5 other people and a resident social worker and looking after herself as much as she is able. She has an active social life and enjoys family outings and visits to the cinema. Meltdowns in public are exceptionally rare. This is because she says, "I don't like to make a show of myself." She has been taught strategies to help avoid them and we know what they are as well, so can help.

She works (in a supported" job) two hours a day, five days a week in a charity shop.

She is an example of the difference that specialised education can make. She could not cope (and would never have been able to cope) in mainstream but the right school made all the difference.

I'm disappointed that 30 years on parents still have to fight for the best possible option for their children. I had hoped things had changed for the better.

zzzzz Tue 15-Oct-13 15:12:58

"and on my performance management under training I put ' Mumsnet! '"

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capticorn1 Tue 15-Oct-13 16:16:29

I just want to make a point.

The prevalence of Autism 1in 20 (may be even less)

Population of our city 400,000+

Number of Autism Units attached to schools = 1

Number of places in that Unit =14 Primary age only

Nothing for Secondary age children

This is why my son has a minimum of 2 hours travelling to school per day.

Is this fair? Is this right?

I'll leave you to do the maths and work out how many families are potentially fighting for one of those 14 places in any academic year.

capticorn1 Tue 15-Oct-13 16:19:35

Sorry, that should say minimum 2 hours travelling to and from school a day

comingalongnicely Tue 15-Oct-13 16:27:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GobbySadcase Tue 15-Oct-13 16:30:21

Ok comingalong. Let's exclude your child got something that they cannot help or change with no attempt to try to integrate them and meet their needs.

Perfectly fair given your sentiments.

zzzzz Tue 15-Oct-13 16:47:53

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AmyMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 15-Oct-13 17:08:27

Hi all,

Many thanks for the reports we have received about this thread.

We have been through the thread and deleted anything which we feel has broken the guidelines. We have also deleted posts which quote deleted posts as this against our guidelines - often because it repeats something which we have found to be beyond the pale.

Please do report anything you think we have missed along the way.

Kleinzeit Tue 15-Oct-13 17:37:41

OP, the other thing you need to get across to your DD is that even if it seems as if “all” the kids think this is hysterical and great fun, chances are that the more mature ones are starting to put their heads down and are doing their best to get on with their work regardless.

Schools do balance the interests of all their children and (as I said before) if he doesn’t settle soon it seems vanishingly unlikely that the school would allow one child to stop all the rest from learning. But in the meantime there can be a temptation for the other kids – especially those who feel anxious and under pressure academically – to get very excited and take advantage of any distraction in the classroom because they feel it’s OK to blame their disengagement on the disturbance. Your DD should not join any such silliness, and hopefully she will not let herself be distracted by those who do.

monkeymamma Tue 15-Oct-13 18:14:33

What triggles said.

comingalongnicely Tue 15-Oct-13 20:15:23

You're all assuming that this kid is the only SN kid in the class - he probably isn't. He's just the one that'll be using all the resources.

DS2 has "Quiet" SN (as in doesn't kick off, disrupt, cause trouble etc) - any help that was in the class always ended up dealing with the "Noisy" SN kids - the quiet ones were left alone to fail on their own.

So no, I don't think inclusion is correct in every case - why should 1 kid, SN or not, disrupt 19 others.

Trigglesx Tue 15-Oct-13 20:21:18

He's just the one that'll be using all the resources.

That's rather misleading. The OP stated the boy in her DD's class had his own TA, so the boy is not "using all the resources" and taking them from others. He is using resources that are legally designated specifically for him. Huge difference and important to note.

candycoatedwaterdrops Tue 15-Oct-13 20:23:18

We're still going, are we?

AmberLeaf Tue 15-Oct-13 20:36:13

You're all assuming that this kid is the only SN kid in the class - he probably isn't. He's just the one that'll be using all the resources

He has a 1-1

That is probably part of his statement and is meant to be for his sole use anyway.

comingalongnicely Tue 15-Oct-13 20:37:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

zzzzz Tue 15-Oct-13 20:38:29

coming. "I don't think inclusion is correct in every case". confused no one has suggested it is.

hazeyjane Tue 15-Oct-13 20:38:36

I have found this thread so depressing, and have wished that it could be deleted, but for the fact that at least one person has said that it has made them think and for that alone I suppose it is worth it standing.

It is such a huge fight to get your child the support they need, from therapies to support at school and then to find a school that will be able to meet their needs and hopefully will have enough places. We are hoping that ds will go to a ms infants with a special learning unit attached, but there are only 8 places and it is the only unit of it's kind in the county, if he doesn't get a place he will have to go to ms with full time 1-1. Then we will have the same situation with juniors (which will be even more tricky if his mobility doesn't improve, as the juniors is inaccessible to children with mobility problems) and I can't even bear to think about secondary.

comingalongnicely Tue 15-Oct-13 20:39:13


Bored now, off to poke babies with a stick...

nkf Tue 15-Oct-13 20:39:53

It's a shame that the OP posted and didn't return. It makes me think it was just a wind up and that bothers me a bit. I've learned a lot. That's all I came back to say. So, thank you to everyone who posted such detailed posts about their own experiences.

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