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to think that this is economically stupid. Tories to announce full and permanent WORKFARE.

(297 Posts)
Darkesteyes Thu 26-Sep-13 23:09:36

next week according to the Mail.
So how is anybody going to afford to buy anything while working for benefits then.
Even less incentive for companies to take people in proper employment if the workfare workforce is going to increase.

TotemPole Tue 01-Oct-13 17:08:21

mathanxiety, I think the basic courses are the sort of things the job centre might recommend people to do, but I'm not sure about that.

mathanxiety Tue 01-Oct-13 16:26:03

TotemPole that is incredibly short sighted (to discount ongoing education, restrict the class hours per week allowed, and call a halt to attendance). It is gobsmackingly stupid in fact, to effectively make sure you have a workforce with limited education and verifiable skills. How do you attract business with so little to offer by way of employee quality? It reinforces my suspicion that what the Tories feel about workfare and those it targets is that they are trying to punish fecklessness/the undeserving poor/spongers -- allowing unexamined prejudice to govern policy instead of looking rationally at lack of skills and lack of opportunity.

I really think Ireland has a much better idea, and has been doing things better since the start of the old regional techs, (now institutes of technology), along with the reshuffling of the Leaving Cert offerings. Making technical/vocational education accessible (which means supporting people trying to get ahead) is so important. The regional techs were supposed to turn out people with qualifications in areas such as lab technology, IT, quantity surveying, quality control, business specialisations like marketing, etc., with the aim of producing a well qualified workforce spread throughout the country, and located in places that never had a third level college before - Tralee, Carlow, Donegal, Athlone, etc. and many other county towns. Braun located a factory in Carlow a few years after the tech there had been up and running.

I used to volunteer teaching adult literacy. People who were referred by courts (this sometimes happened) were harder to reach/teach than people who came voluntarily. Adult literacy is a tricky area, whether the adults are completely illiterate or have minimum literacy skills. There are often complicated reasons for adults to end up illiterate or sub literate, including physical (eyesight, dyslexia) and psychological/emotional issues (childhood spent being bounced around in care, no continuity to educational experience, childhood abuse or neglect, experience of failure and harsh treatment in school, family constantly moving, eg from Ireland to England, etc). You can't just force adults to go and get their literacy sorted out. It is not as simple as that, and there are not enough volunteers to manage this task (and I think there is the assumption that these are people who ungratefully thumbed their noses at school when they had the chance, and the Tories are not going to let them get away with it).

Oh my god, I'm a genius!

How does one go about getting someone for workfare to work for them? I could take a few people to generally help out around the house so they're "volunteering" without having to actually take jobs off people, as could millions of people all over the country!!

Because, its the volunteer work thats the important bit isnt it Dave, not the fact that it's working for big businesses....?

Trigglesx Mon 30-Sep-13 17:26:09

daily visits to the job centre? are they mad?? How will people afford that?!?!?! !

When we lived in Devon, the bus into town and back was a fiver. That's £25 a week out of the £70-odd someone gets for IS? Not to mention trying to plan it around school runs and such. And possibly interviews if they have them.

fluffyraggies Mon 30-Sep-13 17:18:52

vinyl-skinned little mutant grin

<belly laugh>

limitedperiodonly Mon 30-Sep-13 17:16:20

Work with me here, but do you think Gideon hasn't really thought this through?

It strikes me as the kind of knee-jerk reaction he and Dave would come up with in response to the Labour conference.

'Oh fuck! Ed Miliband's had a go at the energy companies and property speculators.

'The Mail trashed it and had a gazillion red arrows. And the Telegraph is telling everyone to vote UKIP.

'Come on chaps. What are we going to say for our conference? 'Who else do people hate? Obviously not the bankers.

I know: the unemployed.'

I only surprised the vinyl-skinned little mutant didn't suggest grinding them up for fertiliser.

Doesn't mean to say he won't.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 30-Sep-13 14:39:03

As I have just said on another thread.

They already have the power to make you go to the job centre every day but they tend to only use it for under 25's or those with learning difficulties or disabilities

beepoff Mon 30-Sep-13 14:34:50

Daily visits to the job centre sounds like the worst proposal ever.

Seriously, what will that achieve?

Maybe the job centres will employ JSA claimants through Workfare to manage all the people doing their daily visits...

Wannabestepfordwife Mon 30-Sep-13 14:27:18

I know I'm going to sound like a bit of an tin foil hat wearer but these proposals of people having to pay to get to their job fare when they are already struggling to live and then working or doing manual labour like cleaning graffiti reminds me of the benefits Britain 1949 where the government gave pensioners less then they could live on so they didn't last long.

It seems to me the government are trying to make survival for the poorest as hard as they can

Darkesteyes Mon 30-Sep-13 13:51:23

And what about your petrol costs fluffy. Dh got me a copy of todays Daily Mirror They are also wanting the unemployed to cook for OAPs.

Quote from Mirrors Voice section
Dont senior citizens and others deserve the care of trained motivated staff instead of a a cheap press gang of the coerced unemployed?

fluffyraggies Mon 30-Sep-13 13:32:52

About 20 posts late but i might be the 'lady talking about her daughter' mentioned up thread a bit.

To reiterate: DD was 18 two years ago and was sent to do sweeping in a stockroom after being on JSA for 3 weeks, having just finished her course in animal management. She'd only just received her certificates through the post from college!

Her aim was to find a job in a vet surgery and/or get some voluntary work in while to gain experience. But no - sweeping from 8 till 4, for 4 weeks was a much better apparently hmm

It was Work Fare - not Work Experience. She didn't have a choice and was threatened with sanctions if she didn't accept the post. There was no actual public transport for two of the shifts the co. expected her to do (rural here), and they said if she 'refused' to do these shifts they would ring the JC, tell them she was refusing to work, and take a new work fare worker on instead. ie: not JSA for my DD for 3 weeks. DD queried this and her key worker at the JC kept saying in a passive agessive way ''Yeeees but you aaaare actually refusing work by not turning up for the shifts no? Hmmmm?'' :head tilt:

I had to drive her in in the end! Supposing i had no car, or was unwilling or unavailable? angry

ParsingFancy Mon 30-Sep-13 10:37:47

BBC today: "To still qualify for jobseeker's allowance they will have three options - work placements, such as cleaning up litter; daily visits to a job centre; or taking part in compulsory training, for example, to improve their literacy."

Jake, I don't think your idea of community service and Gideon's are quite the same.

The current workfare programmes are also billed as community service - politicians always say picking up litter and helping the elderly.

These are the same programmes putting people in Tesco.

So I don't think there's much new there - apart from the massive expansion and increase in intensity.

JakeBullet Mon 30-Sep-13 06:33:17 service will count as Workfare. If they are going to bring this in then allow people to do stuff which they might well enjoy and will support the local community and not big businesses. And they will offer literacy courses etc too......which they need to do right at the start as they are lots of long term unemployed with literacy issues.

I am still pretty anti workfare but this is better than I hoped it would be.

TotemPole Sun 29-Sep-13 17:20:23

QueenStromba, you can do courses while on JSA, up to 15 hours a week. The problem is they don't register this as a valid step to finding work and, as pointed out to me up thread, you could be made to stop the course.

QueenStromba Sun 29-Sep-13 16:14:10

I'm sure she's not whereas people sending an endless stream of JSA claimants to work in Tesco have every right to be jaded.
I was on the dole in Ireland for nearly a year while I resat my exams so I could go to a good university. When I first signed on I told them that I was going to university in a year and they actually left me alone other than having to come in to sign once a fortnight since they realised that hassling me to apply for x number of jobs a week or go on a Fas course was a waste of everyone's time and effort. I'm sure that if I'd still been signing on come October they'd have come down on me like a tonne of bricks though.

mathanxiety Sun 29-Sep-13 16:03:43

An aunt of mine recently retired as a Fas instructor after about 15 years of training people and in many cases acting as a mentor and life coach too. She knew the course offerings of the regional technical colleges off by heart, having steered so many young people into vocational ed after their stint in Fas, and also had local adult literacy instructors on her speed dial plus employers wiling to give someone a chance who trusted her judgement as to who might work well in their business. I don't think she was the only really dedicated Fas trainer going the extra mile.

QueenStromba Sun 29-Sep-13 13:22:37

Instead of turning the unemployed into slave labour they should do something like they do in Ireland if you've been unemployed for a while. They send you on a Fas course which teaches you actual skills that will make it easier to get a job - I think you even get to pick what you want to do. You can even get apprenticeships through Fas.

Custardo Sun 29-Sep-13 11:00:21

waves to Lapsedpacifist <fucking love that name> i'm thinking we should do a mumsnet march - with obligatory piss up after and invite owen jones - fucjing love that man

mathanxiety Sun 29-Sep-13 04:29:40

How about someone pledging to accept as salary whatever JSA would be, and running for election against some smug MP who supports Workfare. It might be instructive for someone working in a job for which there are apparently no qualifications or experience of real life required to see someone come out of nowhere to take your job and work for less...

LapsedPacifist Sun 29-Sep-13 01:08:35

So - why the fuck don't we start doing something ourselves?

<Waves to Custardo - you always talk sense>

We are - informed, opinionated, seriously articulate, experienced, jaded, and fucking middle aged smart women. Why are our voices unheard? Why are we being kicked back into the 19th Century and not doing Jack Shite to do anything or protest about this?

Custardo Sat 28-Sep-13 22:32:10

im at the point now, where i'm glad. I'm glad the country is going to shit and poor people are getting shat on from a great height on a grand scale. I'm glad that this is affecting lots of people, i'm glad that this lunacy has broken through the door of the hard working unskilled poor and that their jobs are threatened.

I'm glad that the tories have taken away legal aid, pretty much chopped the cock and balls off the everymans unions.

Unlike any other fucking country in the fucking world do we take shit. shit after shit, politicians from all parties just crouch, open their arse cheeks and shit all over everyone who doesn't increase their friends profit margin. And we take it.

at some point, individuals are going to stop setting themselves on fire in job centres and cutting their own wrists. People like these, dying individually in relation to the utter shame that is welfare reform.

at some point i hope, we will have to come together and just say NO MORE.

if this affects you and you don't vote. register. for gods sake register to vote. and when you have, help and encourage others to register to vote.

YOU DO NOT MATTER to them unless you can affect their control on power.

Ezio Sat 28-Sep-13 22:13:55

Hearing all these stories has increased my anxiety, i just know im gonna have a IBS attack.

Darkesteyes Sat 28-Sep-13 21:58:53

Coo they tried to stick me in a soup factory in early 2001 after i had already done workfare in a charity shop (where i was refused gloves even though i clearly remember having to deal with soiled bedding that someone had sent in) and the council.
That lasted for 3 months.
Then they wanted me to do ANOTHER 3 months in a soup factory for JSA
Luckily i was offred a job in a sex chatline office so i took it.

Darkesteyes Sat 28-Sep-13 21:53:31

Workfare has been around since before then. YTS in the early 80s Training For Work in the 90s. (very much under the Tories) but i hate both them and Labour for this.

It is all relevant because with every "change" implemented it just metamorphosizes into an even bigger monster.

It is ALL the same thing just under different names Several young people died while doing YTS in the early 80s Should we say its no longer relevant then just because it happened over 30 years ago? And with Grayling wanting to relax H and S laws we could be staring the same thing in the face again.
So you see the past is very relevant to the future.
Its where the phrase "a warning from history" comes from So that we learn from the past so as not to make the same mistakes in the future.

cooeeyonlyme Sat 28-Sep-13 18:49:58

They made my sister work at a drop in centre cafe for drug addicts. My sister is quiet vulnerable and this wasn't the place for her. She didn't feel safe but the job centre didn't care.

Then they stuck her in a chicken factory. She's bloody veggie!

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