to think if the Jewish Council and the FA are upset by Spurs fans yelling "yid army"(310 Posts)
Yes kim, such as the use of the N word by black R&B artists in Rap.
The point remains that if someone self refers in the context of reclaiming a term of abuse, it is not motivated by hate but by pride. It is therefore not hate speech.
It may be offensive to some, it doesn't follow that it is an offence in law.
Bloody hell at that chanting and the hissing noise. This goes on today? I had no idea and I am shocked.
My brother used to be a steward at a division 1 team, he said there was zero tolerance on racial abuse and chanting and he had the power to sling someone out, and monkey noises were heard at every game, but it was impossible to identify the culprit sometimes.
Horrible. I am just amazed that it goes on.
If the fans call themselves "Yids", then the opposition will either respond with "We respect your history and value your identity" or "We hate yids". I'm guessing the latter.
I'm against the name. Fine the club, dock them points, then ban them from competitions.
Your argument seems to rest on the idea that the opposition fans making gas chamber noises et al are responding to Spurs fans though Tiggy. That's not really how it works. Or are you seriously suggesting that clubs with known skinhead fraternities are going to stfu with the anti-Semitic shit as soon as Spurs stop calling themselves Yids?
What happens when the hissing and auschwitz chanting goes on? Just everything just carry no regardless? <clueless>
Not sure about the Jewish Council etc but I am Jewish and it doesn't bother me in this context (Spurs fans shouting "Yid army") because it is not used in a racist/malicious way but has been reappropriated by Spurs fans (many of whom are Jewish) in an affectionate way.
I suppose you could liken it to some black people calling each other "niggas". They have reappropriated a word that has been used against them in the past and have made it their own, so it loses its power as a racist word.
I started out reading this thread on one side of the fence, but now, thanks to Olgaga and others, I'm vaulted the fence, and I'm squarely on the other side.
This isn't about actually promoting fairness and inclusive football, this is about cracking down on the easy targets, as a pretence of promoting inclusivity.
It's like standing by and watching one group of kids torment the class nerd all day, and then stepping in and punishing him/her for bullying when he snaps and reacts to it under the guise of a rigid anti-bullying policy.
How interesting that David Baddiel and Daniel Finkelstein, who find the Spurs fans' chants so offensive, have nothing to say about supporters of their own club (Chelsea) chanting Anti-Semitic abuse
Yes, quite. I'd like to see the 'Kick It Out' campaign take this up as an issue more prominently, and for the London clubs in particular who play derbies with Spurs, to start really cracking down on it.
Arsenal also has a strong connection to the North London Jewish community (David Dein et al). I wonder if their fans ever do it? I've never heard that they do, despite the intense rivalry.
I remember when Mark Bosnich made a Hitler salute when playing against Spurs. Got off far too lightly-he should have got a Suarez-type ban. He claimed he had no idea of the historical significance of what he was doing and people actually seemed prepared to believe him.
All a long-winded way of saying that if there is a widespread problem of anti-Semitic abuse in football (and it seems there is) then Spurs and their chants are not at the root of it, and clobbering the fans of Britain's only 'Jewish' football club is a bloody strange way of tackling it.
It's not that Chunderella. If a team call themselves "purples" then the opposition will take the contrary stance "WE hate purples".
Saying "We are #offensive name#" will lead to the opposition saying "We hate #offensive name#".
For spurs fans to say "We are Yids" means their opposition has to say "We hate Yids".
I feel if Jewish supporters are happy with the word being used fine at a football match/with people they know who are not offended by the use of the word but then it is down to them to accept that some Jewish people will be offended and question themselves is that what want at a football match
But what tends to happen is stupid people claim they get confused over what they can or can not say and moan well Jewish/black people can use yid/nigga why can't I
The point David Baddiel makes is that Spurs fans are not jewish. Maybe 5% are.
Really I thought far more would be Jewish
I guess the nature of chanting is to insult the others team but can be done without racist chants in return
Yids, being an subsection of an ethnoreligious group, is a bit different to saying one hates a colour though. And if having Yids as a nickname, even to reclaim a slur, means they "have to say" hateful things about Yids, that's all the more reason it should be questioned.
I can see the debate for inside the stadium, but these chantings often continue well outside of the stadium and into the surrounding areas and public transport. I think the harm it could cause in these areas, the trauma it is likely to cause from either side should be considered as part of the responsibility of the club. I think the entire culture of it is just getting worse, I live within walking distance of the stadium and train station and I keep my kids in on match days this last year or so because the vile abuse just gets worse and louder over the years. Having had drunk fans chant about wanting to kill [my city] was extremely distressing for my kids, I could imagine similar comments using Yids could be very frightening for many indeed.
*responsibility of the clubS. Obviously it needs to be the Spurs as well as their opponents.
And once again Tiggy you're assuming that the opposition are responding to Spurs calling themselves Yids, not vice versa. Why do you think this? And you're also wrong- even if Spurs were calling themselves Yids out of the blue, it would still be open to the opposition to sing 'we hate Spurs' instead of 'we hate Yids'. When my team play Spurs, I sing the former not the latter.
im pretty shocked at whats being said here as well about the hissing and aushwitz chants, didnt know that went on now in 2013. id feel very threatened by chanting and shouting like that aimed at my own community.
The point David Baddiel makes is that Spurs fans are not jewish. Maybe 5% are
But as part of their club affiliation and loyalty they have adopted the club's Jewish identity.
As he points out, thousands of white people shouting N*** Army would not be considered acceptable, even if they were not intending any offence.
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.