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To not let extremists into primary schools

(134 Posts)
BombayBadonkadonks Tue 10-Sep-13 19:56:25

A friend's DCs go to this school and she is horrified about this and the books they received this week.

Surely telling kiddies that if they don't believe in God only bad things will happen and that 'homosexuality is a sin' is wrong.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Sun 15-Sep-13 13:12:29

Saffy, in Scotland we have non denominational, and RC primary schools, we have nothing like CoE. Non denom will (by law) feature worship of a broadly Xtian nature but dc can be withdrawn, so we expect them to be pretty much secular in nature.

MaidOfStars Sun 15-Sep-13 12:26:31

mam29 I have no idea why athiests thnk uk state schools are secular and seem outraged by religious content

Do you understand what secularism is? A secular school would not exclude religious content - a secular system pays equal respect to all religions and none. Instruction, not indoctrination, and all that.

As an atheist, I have zero problem with comparative religion classes. 'Some Christians believe X' and 'Many Muslims think Y' are more than acceptable.'You will believe X' and 'You will think Y' less so.

Saffyz Sun 15-Sep-13 10:01:29

A denomination is a religious sub-group, e.g. Baptist, Anglican. So the school isn't claiming to be non-religious, just that it isn't affiliated to a particular smaller group. I think in this instance it's shorthand for saying the school is Christian, but not Anglican/Baptist/Methodist/Catholic.

mummymacbeth Sun 15-Sep-13 01:09:37

Hmm actually non denom may indeed be Christian, just been looking into it. Incidents like what has just happened in kirktonholme further persuade me that secularisation of our schools is a good thing.

mam29 Sun 15-Sep-13 00:55:00

I just wonder in uk at leats maybe picking denominational church where affiliated churches vews well known safer than community school non dom afilated with which chrsitain nu tjob takes their fancy.

I have no idea why athiests thnk uk state schools are secular and seem outraged by religious content

mummymacbeth Sun 15-Sep-13 00:45:24

There is no place for religion in non denominational schools in Scotland. I actually disagree with them even sending kids to church services at christmas and easter. the schools are non denom, not Christian. No problem with a high level teaching of the existence of some of the more widely practised religions and what they believe - where this does not promote discrimination - but it should stop there. This should not have happened in this school, and unfortunately there has to be accountability so the heads had to go.

mam29 Sun 15-Sep-13 00:20:25

dd1 initally went to rc preschool/primary near our house linked to rc church next door we not rc.

The all bapised coe.

dd1 gies coe primary now loats of faiths there again onlt afiliated with coe chutch next door.

i went to community junior who had harvests in baptist church , xmas in coe,
have few athiest non christian freinds who send kids to rc infants/rimary yet ourages at christian stance as forget uk predominatly christain country we not secular like france.

bizzarly compating cimmunity wth coe which admissions contrilled y counil not aided feel fairer more balanced mix its fath lite.

the chrustians are staisfies
other faiths ok with it lots sikks muslims

we all live in harmony.

50shadesofmeh Sat 14-Sep-13 22:54:01

I think because we know what the school is really like feedmewell we know that it was likely not intentional, I can see how outsiders who don't know the staff in question would think it seems more sinister than it is.

FeedMeWell Sat 14-Sep-13 20:03:50

Purple and 50shades I could be you too. My kids are at this school and while I think allowing the books to be distributed was a mistake it has been blown out of all proportion and there just hasn't been any indoctrination going on. I hope the head teachers will be back soon but fear the vocal minority will get their way.

ImNotJustMum Sat 14-Sep-13 17:03:57

Yes I have read the thread purple, where have I said that this particular religious group has a church? I was stating my experience of the school and my opinion, or is that not allowed?

picklebumplum Sat 14-Sep-13 15:38:41

I would say its fundamental Christians, they take everything so literal in that their views are slightly unhinged.

The Christian Bible can be interpreted to say gay marriage is fine because God will love all mankind.

Extremists to me as a word is crazy loons blowing themselves up.

Purplerunner Sat 14-Sep-13 13:19:13

Imjust- have you even read the thread? This is just one of 5 religious organisations on the school chaplaincy team and they don't even have a church. The school still attends services twice a year at the West Kirk, same as it always did.

This group has been involved in the school for EIGHT years and the distribution of these books was the first actual attempt to preach/influence the children. So their attempts to "indoctrinate" hadn't exactly been successful so far!

Plus I don't know where the quoted 8 people is coming from. There was the chaplain and 3 missionaries working as classroom assistants as far as I know. So 4 in total.

50shades - you don't need to worry about outing yourself to me as I think you actually are me! We seem to have a very similar line of thinking.

mrscumberbatch Sat 14-Sep-13 12:24:52

I don't want to be drawn into an argument about it because we don't all need to agree here.

I just think its odd that given the sheer number of letters that we receive from school/nursery etc that not one communication regarding this was sent out to parents. For that reason I would lay the blame at the foot of the head teachers, not the misguided people who believe that they are providing a service.

The whole thing is awful and should never have happened but noone died here. Yanbu for people to be outraged but is it BU for people to condone violence following it.

Tabby1963 Sat 14-Sep-13 10:36:35

Mrscucumberpatch I do not require religious groups who promote extremist views to come to my school to "save me money" by providing after school clubs for my pupils, thank you.

The reason that this particular group wanted to "get involved" in primary schools is surely obvious. Targeting young children for indoctrination is a very effective way of brainwashing them to believe any old ridiculous claptrap. It is a proven tactic, and can be very successful, if unchecked.

If these people are now being targeted and "treated like paedophiles", whilst this is unfortunate, they have (like paedophiles) grossly abused the trust of parents and their children by misrepresenting themselves (and their real intentions) at the school. The local community feels violated, betrayed and is very, very angry.

"Tensions are high"? For reasons I have already stated, mrscucumberpatch.

"Punishment doesn't fit the crime"?

What punishment? Two headteachers redeployed; so-called 'voluntary workers' removed from the school; local anger against perpetrators from community who feel betrayed.

ImNotJustMum Sat 14-Sep-13 09:14:22

This is my old primary school, they always had connections with the local church and would have the minister come to hold assemblies and the odd classes but I didn't know they were now encouraging such an extremist view. It is supposed to be a non-denominational school too.

mrscumberbatch Fri 13-Sep-13 23:47:39

No as i said upthread - I didn't say that anything that these organisations preach should be allowed in schools, just that on the whole they meant well (via their beliefs whether they are misled or not).

So for these people to be vilified for doing what they did when they'd been given free reign by the School Head is unfair.

Many of them have had to take their private websites etc down and have police guard at home because of parents and locals threatening them following this scandal. I don't think that is fair.

The head teacher is to blame for lack of judgement in this case IMHO. But there is a real feeling of mob rule at the moment which I personally think is a bit OTT.

friday16 Fri 13-Sep-13 23:10:55

"They all mean well."

Really? Should sexist organisations that believe that women are second-class citizens incapable of leadership (ie, all the faiths you list) be encouraged to promote that attitude to girls? If I went into a school and told girls that they were only fit for child-bearing and should leave the thinking to men, I would be chased from the building. Why is that position OK, as something to teach in schools, just because you believe that your imaginary friend agrees?

ErrolTheDragon Fri 13-Sep-13 23:07:59

>Really though, any religious organisation gets involved with the local community to improve it or create more insert religion awareness

Mostly yes - but in the case of this sort of evangelical group their primary motivation - which they believe is a God-given duty - is to convert. Not to 'create awareness'.

Ezio Fri 13-Sep-13 22:49:11

I have no problem with the teaching of different beliefs, shoving them down peoples throats and stating it as fact, gives me the major arse ache.

mrscumberbatch Fri 13-Sep-13 22:47:13

Hahaha good point 'witch hunt'.grin

Really though, any religious organisation gets involved with the local community to improve it or create more insert religion awareness. Be they Christian, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, Sikh, Jewish etc. They all mean well.

The fact that these particular people's religion is crackers doesn't really matter to me- religion should only exist in a historical, sociological or theoretical manner in non- denominational schools.

ToysRLuv Fri 13-Sep-13 22:31:48

Just saw a tv news story about it. Appalling.

PedantMarina Fri 13-Sep-13 22:28:20

But they weren't being "genuinely helpful", nor was that their intention. Well, by our standards, anyway. Their version of "helpful" (and their reason for being there - not least according to the blogger from Mexico) was that they felt the local populace wasn't "Christian enough" and that they had to be brought round to the right way of thinking.

PS - Hope I haven't spent so much time typing this that I won't be the first person to point out the fucking irony that any attack against these people is deemed a "witch hunt".

mrscumberbatch Fri 13-Sep-13 22:19:10

I have friends with kids at this school and I'm a bit appalled that this has turned into a witch hunt.

This church group arrange out of hours school activities (games/after school clubs etc) and were probably a benefit to the school really as it would have saved them money.

I don't know why this religious group wanted to get involved in schools, whether it is just community support similar to other churches in the area. That is the only thing that I'd question. ( well that and the dubious literature/beliefs )

What is not fair is that people from this religious group are being hunted down in the local area and being treated like peadophiles or similar.

Tensions are high, there is unacceptable things being written about them online. If they thought that they were genuinely helping then it is shameful that people have treated them with such contempt.

The whole thing is a mess and shouldn't have occurred but the punishment doesn't fit the cause.

50shadesofmeh Fri 13-Sep-13 21:39:26

I fully agree Marina and Friday, before it broke in the media I read the books for myself and I was furious at the content and ready to put my own complaint in, I was in disbelief that a school so previously meticulous with safety etc had allowed this to happen.
After I cooled down and saw the media coverage I just felt sorry for what a great error she had made.

PedantMarina Fri 13-Sep-13 21:26:17

Excellent post, friday, esp after you clarified about the "harmless" aspect.

Most of us have little tolerance for this religious intolerance, but it might be worth reinforcing, in so few words, what Dawkins put so perfectly: that forcing a child to believe [xx religious principle] is tantamount to child abuse.

It's one thing to promote values that happen to align with most [mainstream] sects of Christianity (or, indeed most of the other majors and minors): Be good to each other, place in community, honour family, etc.

But it's another to say to a child "if you don't believe XX or YY [myth or bigoted opinion] you will GO TO HELL, and your parents are already going to hell for not doing this themselves...".

Well, anybody, really, but definitely a child. Definitely DEFINITELY a primary-age (or lower) child. They are too young to have developed the critical thinking that will enable them to take such teachings at a level they can cope with. Or, maybe more precisely, young children have untrained but BRILLIANT critical thinking - they love to question things: to stop them in their tracks for the sake of A.N.Cult's Mythical Omni-spanker, is cruel. I honestly akin such mind control to porn or drugs.

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