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To agree with the Headmistress to send home pupils who do not conform to regulation school uniform.

(301 Posts)
annemary12 Sat 07-Sep-13 21:13:23

I am totally fed up with school pupils who look a mess and are not dressed in correct or regulation school uniform. I never understand why many schools allow 6th form pupils free will in their choice of clothes.

I think that if pupils are unable to abide by school uniform regulations what hope of they got when they leave school and are going to interviews.

I believe that all school pupils including 6th form pupils should wear a regulation school blazer and school tie so they can show which school they go to.

Headmistress like Leslie ellis are standing up for standards that have been in decline since the 1970"s and need to be fully supported in their desire to hold standards to at least the very shoddy standards that pupils display today. I for one am delighted that a head was prepared to take ridicule and derision in standing up for standards.

After reading the constant criticism of leslie ellis i thought it was time that someone stood up for a upstanding member of the teaching profession.

needasilverlining Thu 12-Sep-13 08:18:24

I don't believe anyone said the OP was a bad person, just that she obviously had massive issues around the subject that made her a tad illogical. And her solutions were very weird and simplistic.

I assume she was banned for sock puppetry, so she's only herself to blame for that.

Stretching the very brightest pupils is the one thing my ds's school isn't amazing at, maybe the result of having so many pupils starting from not even speaking English?

nooka Thu 12-Sep-13 01:17:04

Sounds as if 'that' school can't be as terrible as the OP makes out anyway, otherwise the OP's friend would surely have jumped at the chance of going elsewhere to avoid being a 'SCALLY' as the OP's dd so charmingly put it.

ZutAlors neither of my secondary school age children dress 'terribly' and nether do the vast majority of their school mates. I on the other hand looked terrible in my school uniform because it was badly made and fitted. When I had the chance to wear my own clothes I didn't have much of an idea as to what suited me and probably did wear some weird and wonderful combos, but that's because I had to wear the uniform the rest of the time. When you have the freedom to wear what you like all the time I have found much less of a big deal.

Wallison Wed 11-Sep-13 23:31:26

I think I've slipped into a parallel universe.

ravenAK Wed 11-Sep-13 23:28:49

Mine are argyle. Very warm & fluffy <wiggles toes>.

Wallison Wed 11-Sep-13 22:51:57


So, you had the option of going independent, and then you won a place at the grammar school, but turned that down?

This thread is weird. hmm

jonesclaire Wed 11-Sep-13 22:47:46

First of all i have named changed for this, i am a regular poster but i want to stand up for the op who is a close friend of mine. She has been locked out of her account and cannot respond.

I would like to make a few valid points about the op.

1. The op has come across as a very judgemental and snobby person who is a bit neurotic. These two perceptions about op could not be further from the truth. She is a very caring person and she does care for the pupils of the non selective school that my Ds goes to.

2. Op had a very difficult upbringing and does feel regret about her education. She does believe that her mum let her badly down with discipline. Op is the best chair of the parents association my DDs school as ever had, a more passionate person about her role you could not meet.

3. Having a bright Ds at the school the op calls "that" school i can assure you that the points she makes are very valid. When my Ds failed is 11+ we decided to give the non selective school a chance rather than going independent. This was after a brilliant speech from the head, he gave the impression that Ds would get the education that was correct for him. I also won a grammar school place on appeal for Ds, yet i was prepared to give the non selective school a chance. The sad truth is despite achieving a grading of good at its last inspection, it is not able to academically push my Ds. i have given the school to the end of autumn term to improve or i will pull my son out. My son is yr 8 so i have given the school 1 year and it is time for them to show me,they can
educate Ds.

you may not like what i have said and think the op is still "VILE". I just wanted to at least put some of the reasons for the ops views. They may be extreme but are not meant to be vindictive.

marriedinwhiteisback Wed 11-Sep-13 20:45:38

Royal blue, plaid skirt (pleated) all trimmed in daffodil yellow. Thank you Lord for business suits in 6th form smile. Fab school, honestly. Uniform's a bit crap though - they like it when they're little but dd said tonight "I'll be really glad to get rid of this freaking pile of SH one T next year. Ahem 16k a year and language like that!!

C'mon OP - chill a bit. See the other side of the argument.

WorkingItOutAsIGo Wed 11-Sep-13 10:37:15

Interesting thread, thought I'd add my tuppenceworth. I like school uniform, but my DD has ended up at a non-uniform school. Only rules: no spaghetti straps, no bare midriffs, no high heels. So according to the OP results will suffer right, because of lack of discipline.

I wont give the precise figures as I dont want to out myself, but for example, over 50% of the year who just took GCSEs got all A*s.

Uniform per se has no impact on results, as someone showed upthread. It may, as part of a focus on discipline and leadership, be part of a series of actions which also help raise results. But we should not judge children by this.

daftdame Wed 11-Sep-13 09:31:18

ZutAlors I understand what you are saying. Teenagers can be very cruel regarding clothes their peers wear. However I think some of these 'zero tolerance' policies are equally cruel.

If uniform is a policy to tackle the issue of teenagers not understanding how to dress appropriately, punishing them for an infraction, when they don't understand why, is futile. It would be like punishing a baby for demanding attention. Some of the punishments, some schools give, such as sending home, IMO are disproportionate. If the parents don't or can't support the (too exacting) uniform policy either then the school is just going to reinforce the view that they, the school, are harsh, unfair and unreasonable.

ZutAlorsDidier Wed 11-Sep-13 09:19:01

I think it is a mistake to draw too close analogies with adults in some cases, including (sadly) school uniform. Secondary school is, for most, a period during which children become young adults. We do not treat children like adults. Children who are nearly adults need to learn to behave like adults - there is a suitable time for them to do things like learn to drive, learn to budget, learn to cook and meal plan, etc - all things we do for our children when they are too young because it would be dangerous or neglectful to let them alone to do all this for themselves. It is a continuum, it is a tricky thing to know what is the right level of trust, autonomy, independence, and when.

I think school uniform is an attempt to manage the unfortunate truth that teenagers are likely to dress terribly and likely to exercise various forms of social cruelty around clothes. I know we expect adults not to do either but teenagers are not adults. And in so many other ways, we acknowledge this and manage it. If a poster wrote "my 12 year old dc wants to go to an all night party where there will be booze and shagging" a vast majority of posters would say "don't let him / her - too young". It would be the odd lone voice who would say "you could not stop a 21 year old from going out where they wanted, why do you impose your authority on a 12-year old?" - if even a lone voice said that. that is because everyone knows 12 year olds have to be treated differently from 21 year olds, and it is a stupid analogy. I think something similar applies with school uniform

WorrySighWorrySigh Wed 11-Sep-13 07:30:08

Interestingly, my DD (a sixth former herself), estimates that the skimpy dressing is a privilege of the wealthy. The students from poorer backgrounds seem to dress far more sensibly.

School uniform doesnt teach students to dress for work. It teaches them to dress thoughlessly. It teaches them to tick boxes in terms of dressing - shirt: check; tie: check; blazer: check. It doesnt seem to matter that these garments are the wrong size and inadequately laundered.

No wonder Britain is the scruffy man of Europe!

raisah Wed 11-Sep-13 03:19:29

The girls at the sixth form down the road dress like extras from spearmint rhino even with their uniform on. It's all padded bras, one size small jumpers, lacy tights and bottom skimming regulation skirts with the obligatory false eyelashes & fake tan. They all look the same and they all look awful.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 21:59:54

Being academic or bright is no longer enough to get into grammar schools anyway. Hot housing is needed.

LifeHuh Tue 10-Sep-13 21:27:55

Bah. Not sure I'd want nice grammar school girls coming into my ds's non selective to help with maths. And sharing a school play? Well, maybe you mean well, but it reads like Lady Bountiful helping the huddled masses. My Ds is a normal, kind polite child as are his friends. He is not at a grammar school because he is not academic. I realise your posts refer to the particular school you dislike but the whole grammar= smart + lovely High school= low achieving and rough tone is beginning to get on my nerves ...
By the way, if you are in Kent do name, or at least give us a clue- I'm desperate to know where thee schools are...

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 20:50:35

OP do you genuinely believe that a smarter uniform would have alleviated the bitterness and rage you felt in relation to "failing" your 11+ or your parents' issues?
Have I missed something here?

pointythings Tue 10-Sep-13 20:45:36

Schoolboys acting like Lady Bountiful would make for great panto though... And would be about all it's good for.

Grammar schools do cream off the brightest and so leave comprehensives with a larger proportion of the disaffected per class to deal with - that's just how it is.

detroitexpat your posts just describe more of the worst school tribalism and judgemental attitude that make for a divided society. I just love the way you tar all non private school pupils with the same brush - not.

Wallison Tue 10-Sep-13 20:34:16

Just because someone's parents are rich doesn't mean they're going to be good teachers. Or indeed that they're clever.

Oh yes, and everything that needasilverlining said. You seem to think that getting schoolboys to act like Lady Bountiful will solve all of the very real problems that pupils from deprived socio-economic backgrounds will face, despite knowing nothing about them. You come across, in short, as deluded.

Therealamandaclarke Tue 10-Sep-13 20:29:38

I like uniform for school because it's bait of a leveller and it can look tidy.
But I am quite shocked at the cost of many uniforms.
Being so specific about dress codes for a state school, having to buy a particular skirt or blazer (why do girls have to wear a fucking tie and blazer? Do all the decision makers on this issue have an unhealthy "st trinians" obsession?) is asking for trouble IMHO.
I think smartness and "levelling" can be achieved with rules about colour and length of skirt/ trousers and shirt/ jacket. School identity can be demonstrated with their crest on an embroidered badge or similar. Or a school scarf. Make it affordable and less insane and ppl would (IMHO) be more likely to comply.
But that wouldn't suit the zealots.
I sometimes think schools are on a mission to encourage disaffe tion with authority rather than respect for it.

12thDoctorsCompanion Tue 10-Sep-13 20:26:49

Too many posts here so if someones already said this, apologies!

basic white shirt/skirt/trousers are cheap in most supermarkets, so no excuses that parents cant afford them.

most schools have a 'seconds' shop so you can buy blazers/bags etc at a lower price.

brand new blazers with logo are ridiculously priced though.

no other countries dont have uniforms but in this country its all about bling and designer and uniform stops all the fashion competition where some people cant afford the latest bling.

and uniform safer when there are trips out as less likely to lose a person! and smarter if worn correctly.

marriedinwhiteisback Tue 10-Sep-13 20:15:55

OP I'm still in touch with a couple of the mums at dd's school because they are lovely ladies and dd made friends with their lovely daughters. They were on pupil premium. In both cases because they were left in the lurch but in spite of periods in B&B moved heaven and earth for their children. They didn't have money but they had love and enthusiasm and intellect in spades.

If you are a governor and if you want to recover the more I read the more I think you need help and I mean that. Kindly and with concern.

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 20:10:35

If you really listen, then listen to this:

Why does 'that' school say those things? Maybe because they're true. Maybe someone with the intelligence and drive to become head of a challenging school knows more about what suits their school than someone whose educational qualification is 'having a child at grammar school'.

Maybe they pick up that you think of them as 'that school' and don't want the Lady Muck attitude near their kids.

Maybe they know that prolonged exposure to privileged kids (and believe me, even nice children can be horrifically snobby if you hadn't noticed or allowed yourself to believe it) would be counter-productive.

Maybe they've got a point about creaming off bright pupils (no maybe here, BTW; why do you think the results are so good? It's not all down to teaching. Or smart uniform).

Or, you know, maybe all those teachers and heads actually don't give a shit about the kids and don't know as much as you do and want them to have shit lives. I know which I think is more likely.

My son's school achieves wonders with the overwhelmingly deprived demographic that is the majority of its intake. It does so in a very different way to the naice tiny middle class school down the road. If the perfectly pleasant MC mummies started suggesting that they put on (read: organise and run) joint events with us and send their clever kids to help our poor teachers, I'd want to tell them to fuck off because they would be being massively patronising and also WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

MinesAPintOfTea Tue 10-Sep-13 19:53:08

So you have 17 pupils on PP, is that 2% of the while school? Plus if their parents were organised enough to get them through the 11+ then they probably are near the top of organised parents.

You do take the cream and the brightest, that's how grammars do so well but that means you don't end up with nearly so many children affected by social problems.

And if your school aggregates them, would someone from "the grammar" not risk alienating more children than it inspires?

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 19:35:07

When they leave us

annemary12 Tue 10-Sep-13 19:33:46

Needa silver lining. I will always listen to other peoples views and opinions.
I know its more about expectations and positive experiences than shiny school blazers. Social economic problems do not mean that those pupils cannot achieve. We have a few pupils in difficult economic situations.
Granted not as many as "that" school but the 17 pupils that qualify for pupil premium will be expected to access higher education when the leave us.

needasilverlining Tue 10-Sep-13 19:17:08

Jesus. I was about to post an explanation but I honestly don't think I have the strength and you won't listen anyway.

Why don't you just buy them some nice blazers from your generous grammar school funding? Apparently that will solve all those pesky socio-economic problems.

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