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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

(234 Posts)
difficultpickle Thu 29-Aug-13 22:47:07

AIBU to think that is what has happened in the House of Commons this evening?

Having listened to the debate today I am truly shocked and saddened by the outcome.

difficultpickle Sat 31-Aug-13 15:13:48

I wonder if the silence of neighbours is akin to the silence of African nations in respect of Zimbabwe. They don't want to get involved in case they are next.

difficultpickle Sat 31-Aug-13 15:12:29

Sorry, I should of course have asid 'as very widely reported in media outlets' rather than 'as we all know'. It has been very widely reported but of course if you haven't read it then of course you wouldn't know.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 12:24:57

Perhaps there's some subliminal culturalism or racism going on here. Perhaps "we" should know better, and we can't expect others to know better. I really, really hope that's not happening - but it's worth examining the process to see if this is at the heart of pro-interventionism.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 12:19:51

But it's clearly ok for everybody except us to look away? hmm

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 12:06:21

The Arab world is doing this. What do you think of that Shellyboobs?

ShellyBoobs Sat 31-Aug-13 11:56:05

It's nothing to do with us.

Yes, we should cross to the other side of the road and look away as we walk past.


complexnumber Sat 31-Aug-13 11:35:23

The silence from Syria's Arab neighbours is deafening.

(I live in one of them)

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 11:14:19

And where's that overpaid useless Baroness Ashton and the Eu and their foreign that we're all apparently signing up to? Faffing about giving the odd press conference and keeping out of sight. Tony Blair, the Middle East envoy? Once again the people who are supposed to be the hated infidels are supposed to ride to the rescue, the sons of the hated infidels are expected to die without question.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 11:12:03

Yes, Saudi is scared of damaging relations with Iran, Jordan is weak and afraid of retaliation, there are many self-interested reasons why ARab countries and the Arab League are ignoring what is happening. They won't even support western intervention unequivocally with words. They won't join it and they won't back it and they'll no doubt condemn it when it all goes tits up.

SubliminalMassaging Sat 31-Aug-13 10:05:51

Cumbled - exactly. Qatar and Saudi have money coming out of their ears - let them sort it. It's nothing to do with us.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 08:46:57

Why the west, the west, the west?

The Arab world will not support western intervention. The arab world is washing its hands of those Syrian children and people like GoshAnneG should think about that.

ShellyBoobs Fri 30-Aug-13 22:14:44

It would seem likely that the US and France will attack the Syrian regime on Sunday.

ResNullius Fri 30-Aug-13 20:37:05

As a complete aside, the quote used as the thread title is usually attributed to Burke (although this is much debated - see Keyes research)
It is used frequently, where arguments of this kind arise.
Another of his quotes is worthy of reflection, although much more rarely trotted out:
Neither the few nor the many have a right to act merely by their will, in any matter connected with duty, trust, engagement, or obligation.

ResNullius Fri 30-Aug-13 20:16:38

Holdmecloser Shelley

I did not say we were not a powerful military force. I actually said ^The UK no longer has the resources to support action in multiple arenas, or to follow pre-emptive action with sustained presence.
We cut our armed forces massively^
Comments made by Gen Houghton (CDS) reflect this view. Specifically that "Britain must lower its “expectation” of the military power the Armed Forces will be able to deploy in future conflicts"
I assume the man knows what he is talking about?

I also said that
We have an economy which is only now showing tentative signs of recovery, and still has the potential to tip into financial disaster if mishandled. We cannot afford sustained overseas action
The use of the word sustained was not random, but intended to mean that the total cost of action cannot be afforded. Not that we could not afford a bomb or three. It means that we can't afford to spend the money required to support the action!! Frank Ledwidge (former civilian adviser to the British government in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan) estimates Britain will have spent at least £40 billion on the Afghan campaign – a sum equivalent to hiring 5,000 new police officers or nurses and paying for their entire careers, Again, one assumes the man knows his facts.

I note the family links to HMForces Shelly, and am sure your husband was as much shocked by the cuts to our defence capability as the serving officers in my own family have been.

droppedscones Fri 30-Aug-13 20:15:31

Thankyou hissy that is exactly what I wish I'd had the words to write.

twistyfeet Fri 30-Aug-13 19:54:11

What do the Syrian people want? That seems equally confusing. Syrians like GothAnne saying the West should intervene. Other Syrians objecting and saying how dare westerners with their colonial mindset stick their oars in.
Which is it?

Hissy Fri 30-Aug-13 19:38:24

If my government were bombing. The shit out of my country, gassing and napalming my neighbours, friends, family Wtf would I want someone else's government to come bomb my country too?

Military action shrieks to me of intellectual and diplomatic inferiority. I'm disappointed that this is all the civilised west seems to have.

Are we no better than Assad? Are we on the same level of shoot 'em up Americans? God forbid!

FFS, is that what we've sunk to?

All this talk about our place at the table..

What bollocks! Who wants to sit at a table full of halfwits whose only response is to send a missile.

Where TF are thé Arab league? Why are they sat on their useless arses doing FA to pressure Assad, or to pour their easy come money into relief and support for all those countries that are receiving syrians?

What is needed here is not the usual shit that shit men pull, and certainly not the mysogenistic and self obsessed thinking so perfected by the desert twats.

What's needed here is the Arab League to man up, the UN to issue sanctions banning any official arming of the Syrian Govt and ideally issuing an international warrant for Assad and the heads of the military to come and explain themselves/be tried for crimes against humanity.

Yes it won't be overnight, but this has been going on for 2 years, eventually he'll run out of bullets.

Lobbing a missile in is an idiots way of dealing with this, gives assad and Iran an excuse to hit back, and won't serve the people of syria.

CaptChaos Fri 30-Aug-13 19:19:03

We know nothing of the sort, bisjo

This is not appeasement, there is no one suggesting that what is happening in Syria on both sides is acceptable. So stop with the crocodile quotes, it's a red herring.

The UNSC is fairly toothless because Blair and Bush made it so by steamrollering it in 2001 and again in 2003. The only way to give it it's teeth back is by letting it do what it was set up to do.

I have no doubt those of you who want to send my son, his friends and our friends off to be killed and maimed in your name will get your wish soon enough, but I for one am glad that our HofC stood up to the US's war mongering that one time.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 30-Aug-13 19:13:44

Well added, filee

filee777 Fri 30-Aug-13 19:07:03

Almost as stupid and presumptuous as thinking you can alter the course of a country for the better by dropping bombs on them.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 30-Aug-13 19:04:51

bisjo you certainly don't speak for me when you say 'as we all know'. What a ridiculously stupid, presumptuous thing to say.

CoteDAzur Fri 30-Aug-13 18:44:46

We all know no such thing.

If you have any proof that Assad gassed those people, share it with the US & your government. They would love to have it, I'm sure.

difficultpickle Fri 30-Aug-13 18:15:19

426 children killed from chemical weapons in Syria last week. As we all know that was the 14th time Assad has used chemical weapons on his own people over the last two years. Listening to John Kerry speak this afternoon and talking about the agreement not to use chemical weapons which dated back to WW1.

CoteDAzur Fri 30-Aug-13 18:10:30

What Sallying said re what would happen if Assad were taken out.

EldritchCleavage Fri 30-Aug-13 17:48:19

Full steam ahead tracing and confiscating regime assets, to get hold of all the money the al-Assads and their cronies have stashed abroad, agreement with every country possible not to allow them entry (though Mrs. al-Assad can't be kept out of the UK as she is British) and I'm sure there will be more measures that can be taken-full sanctions, etc.

But ultimately, all the power-brokers will have to talk, and that means the Security Council plus Israel, Lebanon, Saudi, Iran etc. But the factions in teh civil war will not stop killing each other unless someone makes them, which brings us full circle to who is prepared to back their political demands militarily?

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