To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill(672 Posts)
Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.
(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)
Your opinions are just as ignorant and uninformed as mine in this case skyler. The article doesn't give very much information!
HoldMe, it's not 'very clear' at all. That's just your interpretation of what it means. It seems reasonable enough to assume that they actually did want another child seeing as they decided against having her treatment when it would have left her sterile.
The article is very clear that "exploring other options" meant "desperately trying to see if they could get the treatment they needed within Ireland".
All this with no money and a language barrier.
I don't know why people bother to comment
over and over when they can't be bothered reading all the information.
Riiiiight. You keep telling yourself that. I don't really care what you think. But the problem is that people like you insist that their uniformed and ignorant opinions should hold sway over Irish women's lives.
Skyler, from the article we don't know when she decided to have an abortion. For all we know they may have been hoping to continue with the pregnancy (exploring other options) - it would seem that they perhaps did want another child given that she didn't have the treatment for her condition that would have left her sterile. In any case, my point was that in order for you (and others) to focus on what you consider to be the failings of abortion provision in Ireland you overlooked the fact that the abortion itself killed her!
Sinister, imagine not reading other people's posts properly before chipping in.
Imagine not knowing the difference in risk attaching to a 12 wk and 20 week abortion. And then to nonchalantly stride through a thread with people who know rather more.
abortion is less risky than pregnancy and childbirth, as it happens.
Yes, it's important that abortion is safe. But no medical procedure is without risk. Perhaps you think that only 100% safe medical procedures should be carried out (ie none)?
A huge part of decreasing the risk involved in abortions is ensuring that women are able to access abortions as soon as they wish. If there were proper abortion provision in Ireland, this woman probably would not have had to wait until 20 weeks. She would therefore have had a lower risk in the procedure she underwent.
No, I didn't say it was due to a failure in duty of care. I asked what difference it would make when she had the abortion if it was a failure in the duty of care that killed her. Surely it's important that the abortion is safe no matter where/when it is carried out? Her life wasn't in danger before she went for the abortion. The abortion killed her.
Thanks Olivia, I think a few people could do with reading them.
Oh Bumbley you're tying yourself up in knots, I'm afraid. You were the one pointing the finger of blame at the clinic and talking about failings in the duty of care. Quite what you based that on I don't know, since we've established that you are not in fact a medical doctor.
Everything that I've said about the woman's state of mind is stated by the husband in the linked Irish Times article. Although I note that you blithely dismiss these as they testify to the woman's fear, distress, sickness and worry caused by the lack of abortion provision in Ireland.
Here's a link to our talk guidelines
Skyler, I don't think there's enough info given in the article to establish all the facts yet. Perhaps best to wait until after the inquest?
Oh Koba, you really sound like you belong in a playground sometimes. Although, thankfully, my 7 year old knows better than to throw insults at people.
I am well aware of the difference between a 12 week termination and a 20 week one. My question was, shouldn't she be able to have a 'safe' abortion at any stage. I should have thought that would be particularly important to those supporting the idea of them to term. Or do you not care if they are safe as long as they are available?
I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well to be outraged about her not being able to have an abortion earlier in Ireland.
Yes! Because we know that this caused her distress and worry, that she felt alone and abandoned, and that this increased the risk of her termination. Can you understand that?
Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.
correction 'How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet?' I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well to be outraged about her not being able to have an abortion earlier in Ireland.
Sigh. You don't have the faintest possiblilty of understanding, so I'm not going to bother wasting my time telling you why a 20 week termination is inherently more dangerous than a 12 week one. It should be fucking obvious
to anyone more intelligent than a potato
You're misrepresenting what the husband said:
^We were worried about what would happen when she became pregnant again, he said. She was sick, but we were told that nothing could be done in Ireland. He said his wife was about 20 weeks pregnant when she travelled to Britain for an abortion. She might have had an abortion sooner, he added, but he and his wife had spent time exploring the various options available to them and raising money for the procedure.
We were left on our own to deal with it. We didnt get any help at all, he said.^
My outrage is that this woman was left on her own to deal with this situation, that she had no help despite being worried and sick, that she had to delay her abortion because she had to save up money for the procedure and the travel. I'm deeply ashamed that woman are treated like that in Ireland. THAT is the source of my outrage, in case it wasn't clear. You don't seem to have the empathy or compassion for that.
You're a piece of work bumbley. 2/3 of the way there!
Skyler, I suspect you are looking for any possible opportunity to demonise the abortion laws in Ireland, even if it means ignoring the real issue that a woman bled to death after having an abortion in a private clinic.
'How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet?' I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well.
HEr husband also mentioned that they were 'exploring all their options', so it wasn't just due to saving up for travel.
How do you know Koba? If its a failing in the duty of care then why would it matter where/when it took place? Why aren't you more concerned that she died after an abortion performed at a supposedly reputable private clinic in London? Do you not want Marie Stopes to be held accountable?
How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet? I suspect you are looking for any possible opportunity to demonise abortion clinics, but I'd prefer to wait for the facts to emerge (possibly through an inquest, although I note that you paid scant attention to this in the Savita Halappanavar case) before rushing to judgement.
We do know some of the circumstances: most notably that she delayed her abortion because she couldn't afford the price of it plus travel to England. That's worthy of outrage in and of itself.
You didn't answer the point that she is far less likely to have died if she had been able too have one at home. You think she still shouldn't be able to, ergo, you care little for her life.
It's your position, not ours.
We're talking about a private abortion clinic in London, not some dodgy back-street place. No, i'm not implying they're all unsafe. Just wondering why you aren't outraged by the fact that she died while having a procedure in a supposedly reputable clinic. I was accused upthread of not caring about women and their babies once they are born. Perhaps you don't care about the women once they have had the abortion, just as long as they can have it whenever/wherever they want?
There were a hell of a lot more women bleeding to death in back-street abortion clinics.
Abortion is a medical procedure. There is a risk in every medical procedure. This woman tragically died, far from her home, and in distressing circumstances. There is an on-going investigation. We do not yet know that it was because of deficiencies in the standard of care that led to her death.
Are you trying to imply that because one woman died following an abortion, that all abortions are unsafe?
Join the discussion
Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.Register now
Already registered with Mumsnet? Log in to leave your comment or alternatively, sign in with Facebook or Google.
Please login first.