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To feel glad/relieved Ireland is voting through Abortion Bill

(672 Posts)
ARealDame Tue 16-Jul-13 10:17:02

Its only a bare minimum - in the case of a woman's life being threatened - but it is also a massive sea change, on this sensitive issue. The vote in the Lower House was 127:31.

(Mary Kenny wrote very interestingly in the Times about it - saying that although the Church has played a role, much of the opposition was to do with Ireland's fear of "depopulation". Partly because of Ireland's history - famine, mass emigration. But also due to a rural pro-natalist mindset. In agricultural communities another child is "another pair of hands". In cities, another child is "another mouth to feed".)

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 22:20:26

How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet? I suspect you are looking for any possible opportunity to demonise abortion clinics, but I'd prefer to wait for the facts to emerge (possibly through an inquest, although I note that you paid scant attention to this in the Savita Halappanavar case) before rushing to judgement.

We do know some of the circumstances: most notably that she delayed her abortion because she couldn't afford the price of it plus travel to England. That's worthy of outrage in and of itself.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:22:31

How do you know Koba? If its a failing in the duty of care then why would it matter where/when it took place? Why aren't you more concerned that she died after an abortion performed at a supposedly reputable private clinic in London? Do you not want Marie Stopes to be held accountable?

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:24:16

'How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet?' I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well.

HEr husband also mentioned that they were 'exploring all their options', so it wasn't just due to saving up for travel.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:26:19

Skyler, I suspect you are looking for any possible opportunity to demonise the abortion laws in Ireland, even if it means ignoring the real issue that a woman bled to death after having an abortion in a private clinic.

SinisterSal Mon 22-Jul-13 22:27:58

You're a piece of work bumbley. 2/3 of the way there!

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 22:28:12

You're misrepresenting what the husband said:

^“We were worried about what would happen when she became pregnant again,” he said. “She was sick, but we were told that nothing could be done in Ireland.” He said his wife was about 20 weeks pregnant when she travelled to Britain for an abortion. She might have had an abortion sooner, he added, but he and his wife had spent time exploring the various options available to them and raising money for the procedure.
“We were left on our own to deal with it. We didn’t get any help at all,” he said.^

My outrage is that this woman was left on her own to deal with this situation, that she had no help despite being worried and sick, that she had to delay her abortion because she had to save up money for the procedure and the travel. I'm deeply ashamed that woman are treated like that in Ireland. THAT is the source of my outrage, in case it wasn't clear. You don't seem to have the empathy or compassion for that.

KobayashiMaru Mon 22-Jul-13 22:28:24

Sigh. You don't have the faintest possiblilty of understanding, so I'm not going to bother wasting my time telling you why a 20 week termination is inherently more dangerous than a 12 week one. It should be fucking obvious to anyone more intelligent than a potato

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:28:32

correction 'How can there be outrage when we don't know the cause of her death yet?' I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well to be outraged about her not being able to have an abortion earlier in Ireland.

KobayashiMaru Mon 22-Jul-13 22:29:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 22:32:27

I don't know Skyler, a few of you seem to be managing quite well to be outraged about her not being able to have an abortion earlier in Ireland.

Yes! Because we know that this caused her distress and worry, that she felt alone and abandoned, and that this increased the risk of her termination. Can you understand that?

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:35:59

Skyler, I don't think there's enough info given in the article to establish all the facts yet. Perhaps best to wait until after the inquest?

Oh Koba, you really sound like you belong in a playground sometimes. Although, thankfully, my 7 year old knows better than to throw insults at people. hmm

I am well aware of the difference between a 12 week termination and a 20 week one. My question was, shouldn't she be able to have a 'safe' abortion at any stage. I should have thought that would be particularly important to those supporting the idea of them to term. Or do you not care if they are safe as long as they are available?

OliviaLMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 22-Jul-13 22:42:41

Here's a link to our talk guidelines
Thanks awfully

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 22:43:15

Oh Bumbley you're tying yourself up in knots, I'm afraid. You were the one pointing the finger of blame at the clinic and talking about failings in the duty of care. Quite what you based that on I don't know, since we've established that you are not in fact a medical doctor.

Everything that I've said about the woman's state of mind is stated by the husband in the linked Irish Times article. Although I note that you blithely dismiss these as they testify to the woman's fear, distress, sickness and worry caused by the lack of abortion provision in Ireland.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:45:03

Thanks Olivia, I think a few people could do with reading them.

bumbleymummy Mon 22-Jul-13 22:51:21

No, I didn't say it was due to a failure in duty of care. I asked what difference it would make when she had the abortion if it was a failure in the duty of care that killed her. Surely it's important that the abortion is safe no matter where/when it is carried out? Her life wasn't in danger before she went for the abortion. The abortion killed her.

skylerwhite Mon 22-Jul-13 22:59:46

Yes, it's important that abortion is safe. But no medical procedure is without risk. Perhaps you think that only 100% safe medical procedures should be carried out (ie none)?

A huge part of decreasing the risk involved in abortions is ensuring that women are able to access abortions as soon as they wish. If there were proper abortion provision in Ireland, this woman probably would not have had to wait until 20 weeks. She would therefore have had a lower risk in the procedure she underwent.

edam Mon 22-Jul-13 23:25:08

abortion is less risky than pregnancy and childbirth, as it happens.

SinisterSal Tue 23-Jul-13 03:10:49

Imagine not knowing the difference in risk attaching to a 12 wk and 20 week abortion. And then to nonchalantly stride through a thread with people who know rather more.

bumbleymummy Tue 23-Jul-13 07:53:12

Skyler, from the article we don't know when she decided to have an abortion. For all we know they may have been hoping to continue with the pregnancy (exploring other options) - it would seem that they perhaps did want another child given that she didn't have the treatment for her condition that would have left her sterile. In any case, my point was that in order for you (and others) to focus on what you consider to be the failings of abortion provision in Ireland you overlooked the fact that the abortion itself killed her!

Sinister, imagine not reading other people's posts properly before chipping in. hmm

skylerwhite Tue 23-Jul-13 09:32:19

Riiiiight. You keep telling yourself that. I don't really care what you think. But the problem is that people like you insist that their uniformed and ignorant opinions should hold sway over Irish women's lives.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Tue 23-Jul-13 10:29:33

The article is very clear that "exploring other options" meant "desperately trying to see if they could get the treatment they needed within Ireland".

All this with no money and a language barrier.

I don't know why people bother to comment over and over when they can't be bothered reading all the information.

bumbleymummy Tue 23-Jul-13 17:53:52

Your opinions are just as ignorant and uninformed as mine in this case skyler. The article doesn't give very much information!

HoldMe, it's not 'very clear' at all. That's just your interpretation of what it means. It seems reasonable enough to assume that they actually did want another child seeing as they decided against having her treatment when it would have left her sterile.

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