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To feel a bit bereft now that the Reasonable Feminism thread is full?

(42 Posts)

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kim147 Thu 04-Jul-13 19:44:31

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Eyesunderarock Thu 04-Jul-13 19:45:35

But you were marvelous darlink, simply marvelous.
Start another one.
Oh, you have. grin

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Eyesunderarock Thu 04-Jul-13 19:56:21

It helped me over my crisis when I remembered what it felt like to read a strong feminist message from an articulate poster with a sense of humour.
For which I am grateful.
I too have a magnificent chest infection in a somewhat unimpressive chest.
It has beaten back two lots of ABs and is headed for round three only slightly dented.
And I have series 1 & 2 of GOT. smile

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Eyesunderarock Thu 04-Jul-13 20:02:22

Absolutely. smile
I love a bit of fantasy, RL can get tough sometimes.

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Eyesunderarock Thu 04-Jul-13 20:38:52

Or join the church.

SigmundFraude Thu 04-Jul-13 20:40:25

I'm feeling bereft somewhat Buffy. Although aren't you nearly better and clearing orf back to work?

skylerwhite Thu 04-Jul-13 20:45:47

Yay! Another one

Sterling work throughout, Buffy.

I hope Spero comes back to this one, as well, as you put a great point to her (about disadvantages down to education/class v disadvantages down to gender) that I would like to hear her take on.

Hope you feel better soon.

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skylerwhite Thu 04-Jul-13 20:51:21

Link to old thread

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Technotropic Thu 04-Jul-13 21:06:10

Damn, do some work, drive home and the thread is full sad. This is a long shot but.................(hoping for another 1000 wink)

Techno let's for a moment assume that you are correct about why we ended up with the culture and gender roles that we have got. Your argument is very logical.

Why should that continue?

I think it should continue for those that are happy to carry on that way. But for those that don't then that's jolly fine too. Mission Impossible perhaps?

From the many threads I've read before, I have a bit of a problem because I generally believe gender roles were arrived at largely by cooperation and evolution; because it was the most effective way the human race was ever going to succeed in this harsh environment. Thus whilst the system may have flaws, its flaws should not a burden for modern man to bear and be criticised for. As I mentioned a long time ago now, we can only deal with the status quo as we've found it. It's not the sole fault of man so is unfair to lay it all at their feet. I believe this is what patriarchy theory tries to do and why, in turn, the extremists see men as the problem.

Men are not the problem. They certainly ain't perfect and some things need to change but men are as much of a problem as women are. controversial maybe but I like to think that women are at least 50% accountable for the system we live in.

Re: Game of Thrones, I realise it's all fantasy but I can imagine the carnage wasn't far from the truth, with men rarely seeing out old age. IMHO I don't think life was a bed of privileged roses for men throughout most of history. I'm not saying women didn't suffer by any means but life has certainly never been easier.

Get well soon BTW Buffy

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UptoapointLordCopper Thu 04-Jul-13 21:37:44

I have no idea what the old thread is about, but I shall wade in (testing depth of water with both feet...)

"...gender roles were arrived at largely by cooperation and evolution..." John Stuart Mill disagreed in The Subjection of Women, talking about the place of women in Victorian England. He reckoned the state of affairs was the legacy of the use of force. He reckoned that the conclusion that this is a "natural state" is fallacious, because we have never known any different - that it's not as if we tried equality and concluded that it was a bad idea. He said that, in any case, it didn't really matter because we could find out by just freeing women from all these constrains and we would then know what they are capable of. He said why didn't we do this, and was it because we were scared that when women found out what they were capable of they might not want to do as they were told any more.

I love JS Mill.

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rubyanddiamond Thu 04-Jul-13 23:21:34

I hope you can carry on the discussion here - the other thread was making me think a lot about my position on the feminist-nonfeminist scale smile

Another thing that bugs me about feminism is that it's portrayed as a women's issue, and hence not something that concerns men. In the press, articles about feminism are normally in the "women and lifestyle" section - where's the "men's" section?? It leads to a mainstream of subjects that affect men, and the side topic of women's issues. I don't know how this comes about - is it that the press is run by men who relegate feminism to the sidelines, or that feminists are reluctant to engage with men? Whatever the underlying reason, the effect is to make me reluctant to say that I'm feminist because, being female, I don't want to sound like I'm only out for myself at the expense of others.

In fact, I think that many sectors of society would benefit from more diversity (not just gender, but different background/class/race etc). But I think too much is made of the obstacles that particular groups face, rather than the benefits to everyone of diversity. For example, I think that the country would benefit hugely from more working-class in government (which is easier for me to say as I'm not personally involved!). But telling the current government all about the obstacles that the working-class face in getting there does nothing to persuade them that they should do something about it. And things won't change unless they are on board! The same with feminism - I don't believe that anything will change until the issues are seen as men's issues too.

WilsonFrickett Thu 04-Jul-13 23:35:58

Ruby!

I didn't get back to the original thread but you said that thing, hang on...

WilsonFrickett Thu 04-Jul-13 23:45:43

I think I'm far more fortunate than much of the population (although that doesn't stop me noticing that the men in my position are more fortunate than me).

Just the perfect definition of privilege, something I have really struggled to define in terms of my own privilege. Thread ended before I could say thanks

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rubyanddiamond Fri 05-Jul-13 11:32:23

Thanks wilson blush glad to hear some of my words make sense!

Is the problem that we are so many?

I think it might be a problem, because it means that feminism has to cover so many different things. The issues facing me are very different from those facing poorer women, or women in less liberal countries. And, to be honest, just the fact that I'm a woman too doesn't give me any particularly good insight into issues that other women might face.

Then there's the fact that women in particular come under a lot of criticism for speaking out, because it's assumed that feminists are, or should be, talking about all women. Just look at, for example, the criticism Sheryl Sandberg got for daring to write a book aimed at a particular class of women, even when she explicitly said that's what she was doing. Similar books written by men get called inspirational and insightful.

"Sure! Great! I'd welcome any woman of colour from a poor background who is willing to work as hard as I have had to work to get here." Thus totally and utterly missing the point, in my view.

Exactly! But replace 'woman of colour from a poor background' with any other category of person, and I'm sure almost anyone could happily utter that statement. Everyone likes to think they've worked hard to get where they are in life, and they don't want to be blamed for keeping others down.

So I think a better way is to convince those in charge using other arguments that it's also in their favour. For example, a lot of current articles about women in the boardroom/high-powered positions etc. contain stats about how diverse teams/boards perform x% better, which is an argument that convinces many (but not all) of those in power. The language used tends to be different, it's less about how much harder it is for the little women to get to the top because they're being kept down by the men, and more about how companies would benefit from a more diverse workforce at all levels. There's a lot more positive language, talk about solutions and some attempt at identifying reasons and barriers without placing blame at the feet of those (men) currently at the top.

I do see your point though about some issues being purely women's issues and what do you do when it's not necessarily in men's favour to change the status quo?

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