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to be pretty terrified that being a child abuser

(336 Posts)
FocaultOff Tue 14-May-13 13:08:20

has actually caused some people to rise to positions of power only because Parliament's power has been corrupted absolutely:

Following the developments of Savile, I continue to be shocked, saddened and horirified on a daily basis - I just cannot get over the depths of this and how far up and nationally this goes. WTF is going on? It took Portugal 7 years to sort out the Casa Pia orphanages abuse network with their very own Savile TV type figure involved. I cannot give a shiny shit about EU referendums and Nigel Horsey Mirage while we now know all this....2015 election has no other issues surely? So long as any party is protecting alleged child abusers within their ranks and preventing due process of criminal justice system being applied to them for a court to find innocent or guilty, as with all other subjects of the law, none shall be above it, then they cannot have be entrusted with power.... how do we know child abusers aren't influencing sentencing guidelines for child sex abuse offences for example?

Am I being crazy to think people would be shouting from rooftops about this if they knew, or does everyone already know and just accept this is the way it is? Not paedo hating public hysteria....I'm a pacificst and I want to see democracy fixed so more like a very severe public Paxmanesque probing on National TV for some of those in charge of the various child abuse inquiries that have thus far been unable to provide proper resolution over the question of abusers in power and children in care being trafficked round the country to be sexually exploited? Why is at the very least this not happening?

ICBINEG Thu 16-May-13 14:04:05

hmmm I take the point about sexualization of children not being relevant. I hadn't thought of it like that.

I still think the society wide idea that women are more attractive if they remove evidence of being post puberty might be a thing though.

So do people find they have the same level of revulsion for Gerontophilia (sexual attraction to the elderly)? Obviously the level of revulsion associated with actual sexual activity isn't the same because the elderly can consent (although you only hear about it when they don't sad ) and children can't, but what about the sexual desire itself?

Gerontophilia is far rarer and hence arguably more deviant and abnormal but I am willing to believe that the thought that a friend of your is an utterly non-active paedophile is far more disturbing than the thought that a friend of yours is an utterly non-active gerontophile?

Punkatheart Thu 16-May-13 12:26:44

That's enlightening. Although I still do not like seeing children dolled up - it just looks wrong to me. But I take on board a lot of the observations. It makes it even more depressing, if that's possible.

I will come out now and tell you that when I was 13 and a very gangly goofy pre-teen, I was followed home by a man asking me to try some sweets. He followed me down a shortcut I wasn't supposed to take home and tried to kiss me. Luckily, although I was a gentle child, I kneed him in the groin and ran home. My very tall and very aggressive older sister went out into the (small) town - found him and got the police. Yes, he was a known paedophile and yes, he was arrested.

I would never ever say that sexualising of children with lipstick etc is ever an excuse, an invitation - that would be appalling. I just don't like it very much.

A child is a child and deserves an innocent and happy childhood. I felt incredibly shaken by the man attacking me and it does seem to be the unworldly children they target - which is horrifying. We do have to try and put into perspective that paedophilia is a deviation, not a norm. That said, if it is brought up in conversation, there will often be a number of people who have stories like mine or incidents where it is clear that there was intent.

bottleofbeer Thu 16-May-13 11:52:19

Paedophiles like children because they are children. All this crap about dressing them so they look older a big old red herring.

They don't want them to look older. That's the point.

FocaultOff Thu 16-May-13 11:36:10

We are going to see widespread huge scale of sexual abuse of young boys going back 6 decades to Kincora in Belfast through to Islington, Lambeth, North Wales, Jersey, Leicestershire. When Paedophile Information Exchange did a survey of their members for which age of children were their preference sexually boys 10 - 14 were most popular IIRC.

Am hoping our criminal justice system isnt as fucked as our FS regulatory systems (Banks too big to fail) and we haven't got people who are essentially too powerful to prosecute.

FocaultOff Thu 16-May-13 11:32:53

Pete Saunders from NAPAC on 5live to Nicky Campbell yesterday morning! Didn't hear live y'day just listened to it on iplayer - states a former cabinet minister will be arrested soon. Didn't Daily Mail run a front page saying that in February?

Unacceptable Thu 16-May-13 10:52:27

Took the words right out of my mouth sheisaba
Of course when people are talking about the clothing and styling as being a factor in abuse they are exclusively talking about the abuse of girls.

Lipstick and the like is never asking to be abused whatever the bloody age!!!

JJXM Thu 16-May-13 10:35:34

It has nothing to do with what the child wears - it is about dominance and control. What was 'attractive' about me was my vulnerabilty and fear. I was targeted my a second paedophile in a one off incident after my own abuse had ended. I was 12 and on the bus in my school uniform - not a Britney Spears uniform but a skirt below my knees, white socks and a blazer. The man who sat next to me on the bus put his hand up my skirt and into my underwear. I was so terrified that I couldn't move. It was my terror that was attractive.

Most paedophiles won't go to their GP because they would then be placing a barrier to easy access to children. Although, I firmly believe that there should be funding into prevention of abuse, there should be more money put into helping those who have been abused who face a lifetime of physical and mental health problems.

sheisaba Thu 16-May-13 10:05:14

The 'sexualisation' of children has a dash of victim blaming peppered in it, toddler wearing lipstick and playing dress up is a tiny minority of the population. Young boys are a large group that are regularly abused. They don't in general go around wearing 'sexy' logo t-shirts that 'makes them attractive' to others. They are just children end of ffs.

Child abuse has nothing to do with looks, it's about power and countless other factors.

PoppyAmex Thu 16-May-13 09:55:34

Oh FFS the sexualisation of children argument is ridiculous; you're talking about a relatively recent phenomena (Victorian children certainly didn't fit this category) and child predators have existed since times imemorial.

"But society cannot expect that noone will find children attractive - not when we have gone out of our way to make them appear so. And it is hypocritical of society to find the desire it works so hard to promote, disgusting and vile."

ICB so do YOU feel attracted to children when you see them wearing a vile babygro sporting the word "sexy"?

Thought not. Neither do I. Neither do most people.

To claim that the sexualisation of children is directly (or even indirectly) responsible for that "desire" is just obtuse.

In fact, part of this pathology (I'm still refusing to call it a sexual preference) is that offenders usually prefer children to look like children, as that's part of the attraction.

To use your analogy, a woman is dressed in tight, revealing clothes will never appeal to a gay man because the "desire" simply isn't there.

ryanboy Thu 16-May-13 08:43:19

I think 'the sexualisation of children' is a red herring

Punkatheart Thu 16-May-13 08:28:58

I was at a restaurant last night, watching kids outside squealing on a lawn, doing handstands and generally being children. I thought of this thread and how to some people, that innocent is something far more sexualised - and felt really really sad.

JJXM I am so so sorry that you went through that horrific abuse. It makes me shake with anger that you suffered that.

But I do agree in part with the sexualisation of children and the hypocrisy. Picked up a parenting magazine the other day with a lipsticked toddler. Yuck!

Not so sure where I stand on hairy legs (if you know what I mean) - I tend to feel in the summer in particular, like a monkey if I don't shave. I don't think that is about being child-like. Shaving one's pubes though - now that is an odd trend - very old-style art paintings, where hair was considered too much down there!

ICBINEG Thu 16-May-13 00:15:14

duch I have not and neither has any one else suggested that we normalise or destigmatise ABUSE.

But abuse is different from desire. They can happen independently of one another.

People including myself have suggested that destigmatising the desire might help people prevent abuse before it happens.

Similarly with the sexualization of the child form by society...this can never be an excuse for abuse but it is a reasonable excuse for desire.

To move out of the massively emotive area of children, would people agree with the following?

That a woman who dresses in a tight short skirt, with heels, make up a push up bra and a see through top has every right to expect that NO MAN WILL EVER:

a) rape her
b) touch her
c) sexually harass her physically of verbally in ANY way.

But she does not have the right to expect that no man will ever find her sexually attractive.

If she were to hold the opinion that people finding her attractive was disgusting and vile then she would be being hypocritical to dress herself deliberately to inspire the very desire she finds disgusting.

To close the analogy, if society sexualizes children, holds the prepubescent form to be the optimum in attractiveness and encourages women to alter their appearance to become more childlike in order to be found attractive, then society still has every right to expect that NOONE WILL IN ANYWAY ABUSE CHILDREN.

But society cannot expect that noone will find children attractive - not when we have gone out of our way to make them appear so. And it is hypocritical of society to find the desire it works so hard to promote, disgusting and vile.

ICBINEG Wed 15-May-13 23:57:50

foc that is a very interesting point about japan!

The whole anime thing really stretches to the extreme the idea of attractiveness being tied to child like appearance. Big eyes, big heads, high pitched squeaky voices....


So do we have data on the relative rates of actual child abuse there and here? Even if we did I doubt it would tell us much...but I still feel it cannot be helpful for societies to idolise the child form.

ryanboy Wed 15-May-13 23:51:40

freyasnow I see no child abuse4 apologists on this threaD

FocaultOff Wed 15-May-13 18:16:07

Maybe we hope for some form of cure that allows pedophiles to take growth/age restricting drugs for 10 - 20 years (which shortens their life considerably) but keeps them in physical form as a child (age stasis of their choice) without growing older so they can have consensual sex amongt themselves for a short but sexually fulfilled lifetime.

But you know what....even in that peculiar sic-fi scenario above I don't think child abusers would be happy with that. Because their fellow child-remainers would not have that innocence, the naivety, the "first time" wonderment of anything, no wide eyed gullibility to exploit. So even in that world (or computer animated child abuse imagery - Japan already provide this) it isn't going to fulfil what it is that a child abuser gets out of abusing a child - it's the status of a child as much as the physical representation of a child. People who ignore the status, power, dominance, aspect of this are disregarding exploitation and what abuse is about. They're focusing on the sex.

duchesse Wed 15-May-13 18:15:40

It doesn't matter how "provocatively dressed" a child is, even naked, this is NOT an invitation to be raped or molested. They are children. Almost the definition of a child is that they are people below sexual maturity, although this limit has stretched a little upwards now since modern children do not really become autonomous until far later in age than in traditional societies. If you have any kind of sexual leanings towards children, this IS is a perversion- children cannot give consent on any level because they are not physically or emotionally ready to have sex. So people who abuse children are never going to have that child's consent, not even if they walk around starkers 24 hours a day. Dressing provocatively is a complete red herring and frankly apologist for the abusers. There is NO excuse or defense for child abuse of any kind.

Giving ANY of indication to sexual abusers that their behaviour is in some kind of way accepted by being "treated" is a dangerous and slippy slope imo. The only acceptable kind of treatment would be voluntary detention for life in a place far from children.

I say this as someone who is about to bury her father, whom we strongly suspect was abused by his father. He NEVER recovered from his childhood and was never happy. That is what I mean by wrecking lives- an adult in a position of authority inflicts pain on a child for their own sexual gratification sometimes for years, and nobody stops them- that child will have very good reason never to trust authority.

There is no way to rationalise that or make it in any way acceptable to anything but the twisted minds of abusers, who lack both empathy and sympathy and feel vindicated in forcing their impulses onto others. These people are rightly the biggest pariahs in our society. They do not espouse any of the views that most people feel keep society together and functioning. You can call it a mental illness if you like, but they should be locked up FOR LIFE when found and voluntary detention offered to those who have not (yet) offended but fear they might.

FocaultOff Wed 15-May-13 18:05:40

Wonder how much the global market for child abuse images is worth? Must be into the billions by now. There will be a lot of people getting very rich off the back of 100,000s of children's pain and suffering.

FocaultOff Wed 15-May-13 17:57:54

Leithlurker - I agree, we are only seeing tip of the iceberg, there is yet more to come. We do have to think about how we are going to protect children hereon in because without facing up to how the abusers have been able to do this (and it's no good saying it wouldn't happen now, because somewhere it is - CRB checks mean its just more important to not get caught on record). Child protection officers need to be able to spot the vulnerable children just like a child abuser can, and ensure they are supported, monitored, strengthened. We're not thinking like them so we can't block how and who they tend to approach.

They don't fancy all children obviously, but they are excellent readers of body language, playing on insecurities to pick out the most vulnerable children. At heart they will have never emotionally matured themselves so they will harbour some peter pan lost boys romantic notions about their "adventures" as they relate them to one another. I suspect many will have a deep inner self-loathing that their abuse of others is a projection of or re-enactment/vengeance of as some kind of warped salve for their own self-hatred. Doesn't mean they have to have been abused to abuse, Ray Wyre was advising that if you claim you'd been abused in mitigation you would receive a lighter sentence. Self-loathing springs from many sources - a religious downer on one's sexual preferences might be enough.

ICBINEG Wed 15-May-13 17:16:09

I am not saying that the current societal pressure to look prepubescent is increasing child could it? The decision to offend is always that of the abuser alone.

I am saying that it is hypocritical of society as a whole to vilify those who find prepubescent children sexually attractive (and who have never offended) while at the same time holding up the image of the prepubescent girl as being the optimum for sexual attractiveness of women.

If you only view the abuse as a crime and not the sexual desire itself then that hypocrisy is eliminated. Although to be honest I wish we would move the image of the ideal woman towards the real average appearance of adult women (you know with pubic hair, hips boobs and all) ...which would also eliminate the hypocrisy.

sheisaba Wed 15-May-13 16:51:01

Some of the comments on this thread are extremely uncomfortable reading. Equating removing body hair with, what exactly? The 70s & 80s did not have a culture of brazillian hair removal but countless children where systematically abused anyway.

I can accept that GPs should be given resources to direct patients that have inappropriate thoughts to trained psychologists, is there any evidence to suggest that this is not happening? What evidence is there that all these tormented souls even exist?

Why not fix the problems we do know exist? Rather than look for some strawman. It easier to blame women shaving, ffs, rather than trying to untangling the complex power structures within our society that have enabled this?

Thanks Freya for the post regarding labeling, I did not know that.

JJXM Wed 15-May-13 16:00:26

sandstripe I do not know enough to comment on this subject with any authority and I can only comment on my own experiences, which are coloured by my own abuse.

I would say that the abuser in my case was a predator and that sex was one way in which he could prey on me. In that rape was one of the tools he used to humiliate me. To him rape was a tool like a beating.

sandstripe Wed 15-May-13 15:37:10

JJXM, what you relate is in line with my own experiences.
You say you agree with Freya, do you mean that in your view the abuser in your case was a sexual predator, not a peadophile?

JJXM Wed 15-May-13 15:24:03

I agree with Freya.

I was abused for over a decade by a family member. It wasn't about sexual attraction. It was about power and dominance and the urge to shame and humiliate me. To him I was just a possesion with which he could do what he wanted. It was about making another human feeling so much fear that he could control them and get off on the power games.

It is easier to do all these things with a child - you have constant access to them and they are not going to shout about it if they don't realise it is wrong.

It's not about attraction and love - I wouldn't think raping someone a good way of getting them to love me?

sandstripe Wed 15-May-13 15:18:44

we dont accuse men who shave facial hair of wanting to look like boys do we?

BumpingFuglies Wed 15-May-13 15:05:24

What do you think you can possibly be doing when you remove your pubic hair but attempting to appear prepubescent? It is sort of the definition.....

Newsflash. There are other reasons, but you don't want to hear them, ICBINEG. If I want to shave any body hair off, I'll do so without worrying that I'm actively encouraging sexual desire of children.

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