To be wary of this guys behaviour and what do I do / say?!(165 Posts)
Not a regular poster but I've recently had one date and could do with some input!! Am I unreasonable to be wary of this guy?! and what would you say to him?
Been single and plodding along for a while and got back in touch with an old childhood friend after bumping into him on a train (I'm starting to think you should never get back in touch ever haha). After about 3 weeks of chatting online, exchanging numbers, I thought he was all very much like me with same interests, humour etc so I okayed a date when he spontaneously asked if I wanted to meet him "tomorrow" after work for dinner; Now comes the downfall!
I organised myself to be free and met him on way home from work thinking as we're up the city we'd get a drink / food. Easy right? He suggests dinner at mine Flustered I say I haven't got much in need to do a shop and lets just get something to eat out. End up having rather awkward conversation - half flows well but other half of him going on a tangent about whatever he's talking about. Thought maybe it was just nerves as he's quite an intelligent man.
Automatically I pull out my purse as the bill arrives because It's just natural to me look up and he's very slowly looking like he's considering pulling out his wallet, so I just hand over my card and pay for it and have done with it. Then he starts exclaiming how no woman has ever paid for his meal and is all beaming at me.
Rather awkwardly he ends up coming back to mine for a drink... how I allowed this I don't know. I certainly didn't utter the words come back to mine! Over a cup of tea, we have yet more awkward conversation and luckily the tele is on to diffuse it a bit. I seemed to learn all about his ex partners and at quarter to 12 I'm wondering when he's going to piss off so I say "Don't you have work tomorrow" and he says "Yeah, I'll be fine" with no intent on going... So for the next couple of hours I'm saying "Tomorrows going to be hard to concentrate I'm knackered" he's still not taking the hint he leans in to kiss me and I laugh and back away, he tries several times whilst trying to get my bra off! I stand up and say right well I need some kip if I'm ever getting up tomorrow and his reply "I suppose I can get the nightbus". In a bid to just get rid of him I say "I'll drive you" so at 4am I drive him home eyes hanging out of my head.
Oddest "Date" I've ever had and so taken a back by the events unfolding i really don't think I was my usual assertive and upfront self. I thought my body language etc was quite obviously a "No, thanks". Clearly he didn't read any of these signs and has been texting non stop. I've limited replies to the odd polite one, but still he advances with all sorts of crap. In fact at 5:30am this morning he sent 8 consecutive messages! Even pictures of himself after the gym, the sky... To his sky I replied " nice view, mine is my pillows because It's 5 fucking thirty am and I'm sleeping!" he replied "trying to tempt me in to bed you little temptress?"
What on earth would you say to a bloke like this? I'm dumbfounded. My replies this week (if I've actually replied) have been sledgehammer blunt. He may be academically intelligent but he's a social retard... what the hell do I say?!
Xenia...I think the lesson is don't invite men back on the first date.
Don't allow them to walk you home. If you do want him to come in say yes come in for 5 mins and then make sure they leave after 5 minutes.
Well aren't you a delightful flower
It seems a very very strange lack of ability to assert.
I could think of some very assertive responses for that
I think a lot of women need assertiveness training and I hope they bring up their daughters to be assertive.
Clearly you never read all of my posts... if you had perhaps your head wouldn't be shoved as far up your own arse.
I think we get it that this bloke didn't break any rules by merely telling her he was a lawyer, it only illustrated his arrogance.
Sorry to go on about it LessMiss but I wanted to make the point that he is an educated man who is well versed in the law because it's important that women realise that even respectable, educated men can be creeps and they shouldn't allow any man to use their so-called 'power' to take advantage. Often the more educated the man, the more intimidating he can be.
It's interesting isn't it?
I am not sure that you break any law if you call a legal secretary say with 10 years experience of doing quite a bit of legal work a paralegal.
The act which says you cannot call yourself a solicitor unless are you are one is one of the Solicitors Acts. There is a similar act for the words barrister, nurse, doctor. They are statutory prescribed words. There is no such legislation protecting against use of the word para legal or lawyer or attorney, contracts manager, purchasing manager, legal adviser.
So you are much less at risk if you use those terms as they have no statutory definition. Although general law against miselading selling such as the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading regulations might apply just as if I said a plastic jumper were made of silk when it wasn't. Then you would have to get out your dictionary and decide what the term means. The fact an association has decided to produce a definition which many may not agree with I suspect does not add to the debate.
I could set up the association of life coaches tomorrow and produce my own definition and say I'm a life coach.
I'm sorry that happened to you Jux. I bet the guy doesn't even think he's a rapist.
The definition of a lawyer by the LSA is only a guide. Unless you are using the term in a professional manner i.e. charging for your services as a lawyer then I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid.
Some lawyers also practice as paralegals. They are not unqualified and require training. Not quite a lawyer then but he will know the law and he will have had training and qualifications to get that position.
You do get intelligent weirdos too.
"A Paralegal is a person qualified through education and training to perform substantive legal work that requires knowledge of the law and procedures and who is not a qualified solicitor or barrister. Paralegals may work for, or be retained by solicitors within the legal profession or they may work within a legal environment within commerce, industry or the public sector." - National Association of Licensed Paralegals
So if his linked in profile said he was a lawyer and he worked at a law firm I don't think he's broken that particular law whereas if he says he is a solicitor or barrister he will have done
What particular law are you referring to? The guys a paralegal. By no stretch of the widest imagination is he a lawyer. Lawyer is a generic term that refers to solicitors, barristers, academic lawyers and prosecutors. Not paralegals. Lawyers will have the LLB degree or have done professional Law Society exams specifically with a purpose to becoming a solicitor or barrister. Paralegals are not required to have any qualifications at all (not even Standard Grades) though of course they may have.
There is a criminal offence but only if someone who doesn't hold a practising certificate carries out legal work and charges for it.
I would hope Xenia that whilst women are bringing up daughters to be assertive and distrustful of men, that they are also bringing up their sons to be respectful, to never take advantage, to realise that no means no and to have a clear idea of what rape is.
It should not be down to the women to prevent themselves from being raped. It's down to the men to CHOOSE not to be rapists.
It's done now and I expect he'll keep away.
Lawyer is not a restricted term. Solicitor or barrister or nurse or doctor are. So I can call myself a therapist or life coach even if I have no qualifications but I must not call myself a doctor in public if I am not. So if his linked in profile said he was a lawyer and he worked at a law firm I don't think he's broken that particular law whereas if he says he is a solicitor or barrister he will have done.
I think the lesson is don't invite men back on the first date. Don't allow them to walk you home. If you do want him to come in say yes come in for 5 mins and then make sure they leave after 5 minutes. It seems a very very strange lack of ability to assert. I think a lot of women need assertiveness training and I hope they bring up their daughters to be assertive.
The fact she paid doesn't matter. I pay sometimes. Why should men pay all the time although you might have expected him to offer to pay at least half.
He sounds like one to avoid in future.
Just in case someone may not be taking this sort of scenario seriously, I thought I'd tell you that I had a similar experience. In fact several, way back in the early 80s.
The time an apparently friendly bloke I'd just had a meal with just kind of followed me home and inveigled his way in, he raped me. Yes, I'd told him to go, yes I'd made it clear I wasn't interested. He got in on the pretext of needing a wee. He had followed me home apparently to ensure I was safe.
So, lurkers, report these guys before it happens.
He must have the hide of a rhino. You could not have made it any clearer that you did not want any more contact. Glad to hear he will be getting a warning letter. Fingers crossed he will finally get the message!
He was on my linkedin friends list. I have to be honest I don't use it much as I'm currently juggling being a university student with freelancing and the odd bit of tutoring. Didn't cross my mind to check his actual job title until another poster mentioned it.
No, his employers might consider it a disciplinary offence if he was lieing to people about being a lawyer, particularly if he was telling them he worked at X Firm. I found the bit where he said he was a lawyer or not and the LinkedIn part a bit unclear.
Yes, he doesn't take the biscuit he nicks the whole cookie jar!
I think the things you were saying about it being programmed in us to be nice etc are bang on. My initial reaction to everything has been has been benefit of the doubt really. Thinking, Have I led him on? Is he one of those odd bod types who don't have much experience and have really crap social awareness like you see on The Big Bang?
It's only when sense kicks in I remember he's not stupid or some sort of hermit and he's got a job that would make him aware of this stuff at least.
The police guy I saw said it's actually pretty common for women who report this stuff to be self doubting. I don't have his home address but I did get his work one off of linkedin and they were going to contact him with a harassment warning letter. Feeling slightly mean that it'll go through his work
He would only be disciplined if he filled in forms as a lawyer though, exaggerating his status to a potential date is not quite the same. It's a pretty pathetic lie anyway when he has a LinkedIn profile and the OP on his friends list.
Makes you wonder why tell her the lawyer fib when she can clearly see from his profile that he's not?
What would be a disciplinary matter is if they find out he's been reported to the police. I'll bet he'll want that hushed up pretty sharpish.
Perhaps he thinks he is above it all and because of his status, he'll never get into trouble?
He's a paralegal. Believe me, if people in his firm knew he was going about telling people he was a lawyer when he was a paralegal, he would laughed out of town. Depending on the firm, it might also be a disciplinary matter.
Gosh he really does take the biscuit doesn't he? Are the police going to do anything? You did well not to answer, I hope they contact him and make him realise how inappropriate he is being. He is certainly not innocent, you don't work in law without realising when you yourself are breaking the law. Perhaps he thinks he is above it all and because of his status, he'll never get into trouble? He certainly sounds disillusioned enough to believe that.
Do tell me that the police will contact him?
Thank God you went and it's all on record. Makes me wonder if he is already known? If not I fear he soon will be.
Allover - Yes, I have.
After a few quiet days I got several short messages from him:
"I don't follow?"
"I really like you, thought you liked me back?"
"I want us to have a chance"
It was either a ploy to plead innocence or he really doesn't understand how inappropriate his behaviour is!
So I didn't reply to any and followed through with popping into the police. I relayed everything and showed them all of the messages on my phone. Really glad I posted on here because I was really doubting myself to begin with.
Date -Rape almost. Hope he got the message finally.
GlassOfRose: he was behaving like a rapist, though. He kept ignoring your hints and signals that you were not interested and overriding your objections, he kept mauling your body and kissing you despite your obvious lack of enthusiasm. He insisted on coming into your house when you didn't want him there, and if you hadn't been firm enough about driving him home, he would have been trying to stick his dick in you all night.
This isn't a man who is socially inept or who struggles to pick up social cues, this is a man who thinks that he is entitled to have sex on women, and he's going to keep on pushing until it gets to the point where he has to either cross the line and acknowledge (to himself) that if he contineus then he's raping the woman ie she's told him to leave the house or slapped him or something, or decide to back off for the moment but to behave as though the woman is the one in the wrong for not accepting his right to stick his dick in her.
The rapists in dark alleyways are definitely in the minority and most rapists don't even realise they are rapists, in fact most rape victims don't see themselves as such.
I'm not sure I can assume he's probably a rapist... but then again thinking about it we're all kind of programmed to imagine rapists as some bloke in a hoodie down a dark alleyway.
His behaviour advances on the date weren't overly forceful. He tried to kiss me and I laughed which was a mixture of nerves and shock as I clearly wasn't sending out signals. He kept pressing to kiss me and he had his arm behind me trying to unclasp my bra rather quick. I got up for a drink and sat on back down on the opposite sofa. The lack of "Fuck off" was out of sheer shock really.
Not sure SGB, I think we all socialised to be grateful for any kind of attention and our culture is notoriously too polite. Look at how many women are taken advantage of by other women to be unpaid babysitters, to pay for lunches, to give them lifts, etc. Mumsnet is full of threads from under-confident women asking how to deal with so-called friends who take advantage.
Perhaps is it a particularly British thing too. Giving out compliments doesn't come naturally to most and what do we do when we are given a compliment? We deny it straight away. I've found that this doesn't happen across the pond where they are more likely to give and take compliments.
I don't think you can label him as a probable rapist either. Yes he's a dick but would he go so far as to take sexual advantage? We don't know. Maybe and maybe not. But if GlassofRose does report the texts to the police then should he ever push his luck and prove himself to be a rapist, there is evidence there that will help in his prosecution.
You'd hope that it will never come to that but there are both men and women out there who are all too willing to prey upon polite and under confident victims. I'm glad that the OP ditched the polite approach for a more forceful one.
Pity they don't do confidence lessons at school along with lessons on respect.
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