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to hope the government has the guts to tax WEALTHY pensioners more

(954 Posts)
ReallyTired Mon 22-Apr-13 09:12:30

The Fabian society has suggested that wealthy pensioners pay more tax.

Some how I can't see a conservative wanting to tax wealthy pensioners more when they all vote Tory.

I find it unfair that pensioners with an income more the average family's income get free bus buses, winter fuel allowance, TV licence as well as paying less tax and national insurance. It is about time that the the wealthy pensioners took their share of the pain of the cuts.

I am in favour of well off pensioners having free bus passes, winter fuel allowance as these things encourage independence and improve health. I would like to see the money for these things clawed back by WEALTHY pensioners paying more income tax.

Squarepebbles Mon 22-Apr-13 09:22:42

WFA doesn't improve health if you use it for bar bills on your latest cruise which is exactly what wealthy pensioners I know spend it on.Also not keen on my tax paying to heat huuuuuge houses far too big for a couple without dependants to live in.

Anyhow yanbu

Lets not forget even on a modest salary many pensioners are better off than the rest of us as many are mortgage free.

ssd Mon 22-Apr-13 09:37:29

but it wont happen

CrispyHedgeHog Mon 22-Apr-13 09:39:06

It won't happen. The grey vote is the one that counts.

I'm sort of in two minds about pensioners, on the one hand they've done their stint, worked to build up what they have etc.. on the other hand times were different then, and while it was still hard, it wasn't hard in the same way that people are struggling now.

I dunno, I've got splinters on my arse from this fence I'm perched on.

YoothaJoist Mon 22-Apr-13 09:39:38

YANBU. But as you say, there's not a cat in hell's chance of this happening under a tory government.

jacks365 Mon 22-Apr-13 09:40:28

While i understand and sympathise with your view there are very few changes that could be made which would be cost effective or legal. Things like wfa and free bus passes are not means tested because the cost is higher than would be saved. The discrepancies in tax payments are in real terms due to ni payments not tax levels (age related allowances are being phased out) so the only way would be to increase tax rates for pensioners and that would be illegal under discrimination laws.

The comments re lack of mortgage are also wrong, why should people pay more tax because they have no mortgage. Some pensioners have mortgages some non pensioners own houses outright so how would that be worked. Can you imagine the outcry people being taxed for home owning without debt!

I don't know the answer maybe scrap the wfa and increase pension credit to compensate so its targeted but not everyone claims who is entitled so some will miss out.

Callisto Mon 22-Apr-13 09:43:15

My father is a 'wealthy' pensioner. He has never claimed anything, he owned his own business that not only paid vast amounts of money in business taxes, he personally paid vast amounts of taxes, and his entire workforce paid tax. He also cared single-handedly for my very disabled mother for several years, thus saving the NHS a large amount of money. Why the hell should he be penalised now that he has retired? YABU.

ScarlettInSpace Mon 22-Apr-13 09:44:50

Personally I think YABU - pensioners have already paid tax on their money when they earned it and no doubt tax on their savings interest for years, why should they pay tax on it again just because they have worked hard to plan their retirement, paid off their mortgage & saved hard to ensure they have a good standard or life when they retire?

dozily Mon 22-Apr-13 09:56:30

it wasn't hard in the same way that people are struggling now

I really don't think it's true that people now have it harder than any time in the last 60, 70, 80 years.

magimedi Mon 22-Apr-13 09:58:33

Yes, ScarlettInSpace I agree.

And don't forget that there is a very good chance that all the savings will be taken to pay for care in old age. £27,000 a year for care with out nursing, rising to £38,000pa with nursing care is the average at the moment. Not many peoples savings are going to cope with that for very long.

scaevola Mon 22-Apr-13 10:03:25

I think this is soundbites, not properly thought through policy.

Pensioners already pay tax, at the same rates and with same allowances as the rest of the population.

I do not think they should be asked to pay more.

Making the state pension taxable is about the only thing you could do.

landofsoapandglory Mon 22-Apr-13 10:10:40

YANBU, but it won't happen.

My parents and PILs are both quite wealthy. PILs have had 2 houses left to them (both only DC), my father had a house left to him. My parents have a business that is still running, my father has a fireman's pension, my PILs closed a business, MIL has a NHS pension. As couples they both have a nice lifestyle, one that many people can be quite envious of. They take many holidays abroad each year, have nice houses, new cars etc.

On the other hand DH is in the RAF, he has taken a real terms pay cut, as has most people in society, I am disabled and live in fear of my DLA being scrapped. DS1 is in two minds about going to Uni because if the debt aspect, despite the fact he is on course for at least 3 As at A level.

We, and most of us of our generation, will work as hard, if not harder, and longer than today's pensioners and will still not get the benefits they do. When disabled people, including disabled children, and people in poverty are having to help pay towards bring the benefit down it becomes right and proper that wealthy pensioners should do too!

landofsoapandglory Mon 22-Apr-13 10:11:44

*deficit down not benefit

msrisotto Mon 22-Apr-13 10:13:34

Agree with ScarlettInSpace - These pensioners have been paying tax their whole lives not only on their earnings but also on savings and after their dead they'll pay it again on inheritance tax. No wonder they're all retiring abroad.

jacks365 Mon 22-Apr-13 10:13:36

The state pension is already taxable but below personal allowance levels so you do pay tax if you have a private or works pension or do part time work which takes you above the level.

handcream Mon 22-Apr-13 10:19:24

Having seen my DM spend 40 yrs working in teaching I think she deserves to now be entitled to WFU and all. She finds the travel allowances extremely useful as she doesnt drive.

I heard on another thread a SAHM stating that the 'wealthy' pensioners should fund for her to stay at home and pay her minimum wage.....

scaevola Mon 22-Apr-13 10:24:59

My bad, apologies.

So pensioners are already paying tax at the same rate and with the same allowances as the rest of the population.

I don't think your tax rate should go up when you retire (whether old age, medical or other).

ConferencePear Mon 22-Apr-13 10:35:10

scaevola wrote "So pensioners are already paying tax at the same rate and with the same allowances as the rest of the population. "

It's worth saying that they are also taxed on their (ever decreasing in value) savings.
It will put people off investing in a pension or saving if the government is going to change the rules after they have retired.

Torrorosso Mon 22-Apr-13 10:48:44

'It wasn't hard in the same way as now'

What, you mean a world war and bombings, food shortages, having to go down the mines (like my 'wealthy pensioner' dad did).

He remembers being hungry, studied at night school to become an engineer and is now retired and relatively well off, but disabled.

I don't begrudge him a penny - he has paid his dues.

DorisIsWaiting Mon 22-Apr-13 11:10:57

Those who are saying wealthy pensioners should not be penalised are not really looking at the bigger picture. They are pretty much the only group really not affceted by any of the changes so far. Certainly M and FIL seem to be having the same number of holiday's (2x America and least 1 uk so far this year) and jaunts away this year without too much trouble.

OTOH my grandma is at the other end of the spectrum and struggling to heat her home. It is not all pensioners but we are most definitely NOT all in it together.

DorisIsWaiting Mon 22-Apr-13 11:14:19

And those saying pensioners have paid their dues, the money the government owes has been built up over the course of their lifetime, as I understand it the dues weren't always paid (at least at a level that didn't add to the debt), that is another reason we are in this situation.

handcream Mon 22-Apr-13 11:15:28

Around here there are a lot of 'poor' pensioners living in big houses often stuffed full of things which makes it almost impossible for them to think about moving and releasing some equity. I am talking about £1 m houses where they live in a couple of rooms.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of women didnt actually work or worked just part time. Now it is far more common to have women working full time

DorisIsWaiting Mon 22-Apr-13 11:17:42

Maybe those who can afford it shouldn't be claiming the WFA and bus pass.

It could be added on to one of the other pension benifits i.e. if you claim x or y (pension credit top up for example) then you automatically recieve WFA and buss pass, those in the middle band (not ealthy but out of the really poor range) could apply on a means tested basis.

HoneyDragon Mon 22-Apr-13 11:30:39

Agree with others about times being worse. My mother was abandoned, fobbed off onto which ever relative could afford to feed her and my Aunty eventually found her in an orphanage with nothing. There was no welfare. My Aunty and Uncle.

My mother and father had a one room flat with cold water and no indoor plumbing.

They have done tremendously well for themselves have both worked and paid into the system. They pay tax on their savings now. Why should they specifically pay a tax purely based on the fact they are over 60 and have savings?

Equally, dhs earliest memories of being homeless on the street with his mother and sister. Eventually they had a dump with a cobblestone kitchen.

They saved and worked and saved. Now they are retired and budget incredibly hard to live if their savings.

Dh and I have worked incredibly hard together to get what we have now. And are hoping things are going to improve massively soon. What incentive to we have to work, save and invest if we are already paying 40% tax rate only to be taxed extra again on it on retirement? confused

Oddly enough, both my IL and Ps donate from their WFA to charities for the elderly. Reasoning being if they claim it and donate it, it is serving its purpose rather than sitting in the pot.

ReallyTired Mon 22-Apr-13 11:41:19

"Pensioners already pay tax, at the same rates and with same allowances as the rest of the population."

Pensioners pay less tax as they don't pay national insurance. Pensioners also have a higher personal allowance than working people. This is done to insure that pensioners on a modest income do not lose out.

I feel that in times of austerity that we should pay our share.

I would like the winter fuel allowance to be in a form of a voucher so that the money has to be spent on heating. Using the fuel allowance to go on holiday should not be funded by the tax payer.

Its surprising that there is an extra tax allowance for being registered blind but no other disablity. I think its reasonable to have an extra tax allowance for blind people, but surely deaf people, or other people with physical impairments should be given an allowance as well.

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