AIBU to blame social science courses for some of this hatred of MrsT(313 Posts)
I did an OU foundation social science course once. A major part was the detrimental effects of redundancy and unemployment on individuals and the community. It was interesting and spelled out how lives can be devastated by this.
The example was a Yorkshire mining town. It was a good course but I wonder if those, unlike me, who weren't around at the time of the miners' strikes have got a skewed view of why things happened.
Billy Elliot touches on the strikes too I think. But no background info is given, as far as I remember.
Am just amazed at the vitriol - especially by those not directly affected. And it was a long time ago. Don't want to start another debate unless someone has a new point to make.
Grinkly. I asked you a question. I'm genuinely interested in why you would start this completely futile thread.
see what I mean?
But I guess it's not surprising that the supporters of Thatcher should struggle to understand why people might be strongly opposed to policies that have (or had) no direct impact on them. These are the people, after all, who believe in the politics of selfishness and greed, who argue that there is no such thing as society. Why on earth would they be bothered about policies that only destroyed other people's lives?
The entire premise of this thread represents everything that I detested about Thatcherism, and indeed, everything that I hate about our current coalition government.
that the opposition was a shambles
babnouche thanks for that. That explains alot. It hadn't occurred to me that that was the case. I had thought that the country was in a mess and that Labour were at a loss as to how to fix it but MT at least had some ideas when in fact Labour were floundering.
And Lunaticfringe that is interesting.
The vitriol amongst my circle of friends is as extreme in relation to Blair's illegal war as for Thatcher's Belgrano sinking.
However, Thatcher did not just one thing they vehemently disagree with, so is consequently more hated. (Blair did more than one too, just less than Thatcher).
'Nor was Blair's lying to start a war with Iraq but he was voted back in despite this by labour voters so don't feel the Belgrano is any worse.'
Unfortunately any government we had would have supported the Iraq war - the tories were very much in favour of it at the time. Don't forget that MPs like Robin Cook resigned over it. But you're kidding yourself if you think a Tory government wouldn't have done the same as Blair.
And does someone really have to have direct experience of something to be angry about it? I'd best go and tell FIL that I'm no longer allowed to give a shit about what he went through, job wise, in the 80s as a result of political point scoring because it didn't directly affect me.
the country was a mess when Thatcher was voted in.
Labour didn't try and criminalise half of teh community due to their poor collection of poll tax.
Labour didn't attack core values or communities
it's only the miners' strike that causes issues
Try talking to whole communities devastated by the demise of the shipbuilding industry.
I don't see why the OP started this thread if she's simply going to dismiss what every one has to say.
you're talking 23 years ago
Er no, we are not scraping the barrel - some of us were alive at that time. It might have been 23 years ago but many places haven't yet recovered.
OK so many council tentants were pleased to buy their own homes, but why did she stop councils building new ones? (Those same ex-council homes BTW which are now in the hands of buy to let landlords, in many cases, but that's fine - public sector bad, private sector good, there's no such thing as society and all that.)
When it comes to public companies - having been in both I can tell you where I saw the lazy ones.
Big fat index linked pension? The average local government pension is £5000, yes that's right, 5 not fifty. I was going to type something much ruder, but on that score don't have a clue what you are talking about.
How about revisiting the social science course to try and understand the issues better instead of parroting the Daily Mail?
Well, the poll tax and miners and their communities. What else of major import was there?
The dismantling of the steel industry
Bank deregulation and demutualisation of building societies, which is part of a long chain contributing to how the Northern Rock collapse was able to happen.
Selling off of social housing stock....
My point about Blair's War is that HE doesn't receive the vitriol that MT getsfor the Belgrano. Though deserves it more imo.
You seem determined to get things out of context here. As well as failing to understand that actually, Blair DID get (and will continue to get) harsh criticism over the Iraq War. Also, as someone has said upthread, when he dies, what you describe as "vitriol" will almost certainly descend upon his deceased head.
You asked AIBU to blame social science courses for some of this hatred of MrsT?. You've got very many responses that suggest YWBU. However, rather than take any dissenting views on board and argue the point based on your question, you are now merely casting about for what you see as comparable and examples made by the Left.
Dawndonna, I was 17 at the time of the strikes - I don't know if people have forgotten or don't know but the bodies were piling up at the gravesides, the rubbish was piling up in the streets, we were running out of butter because it came from New Zealand, petrol was rationed as the dockers were on strike etc etc
Just imagine if your DCs were doing A levels and you were informed that school would be closed 2 days a week for an unknown time into the future!
But then there was no twitter or blogs, we just got on with it. Think of Greece now - that was what Britain was like but only Britain, not the rest of the world, it was almost farcical.
So MT broke the unions. We might be some near Communist society if that hadn't happened, which might or might not be a good thing.
So I know of the good things she did (breaking the unions) so can't quite understand the vitriol, except, obviously, for those who were directly affected.
So I started this to see if there were other reasons which I had missed so have acknowledged a couple above.
Oh, I also know that we burned polish coal on the fire (no central heating then) as it was better quality and cheaper than british stuff.
So I will have to remain confused.
re BBC showing miners/police fighting, on one broadcast, they showed a clash ,a very brutal one , which according to record ,changed public opinion towards the miners as it appeared the miners attatcked the police, well after the end of the strike the BBC agreed/admitted they had"mixed up the broadcast "? and in actual fact the police had attatcked the miners !go figure.>The Falklands?who could have found it on a map ,prior to her sending a "taskeforce" to defend them/win an election? sinking a ship sailing AWAY from the combat zone, as ordered by her ,>>> against international law ,but do not let the law get in the way of election victory . A frail old lady ? why mention that at all ? live long ,get frail,hardly an achievment. Why the Ritz? her pals own it, ALL x P.M."s get security protection, Son lost in desert ?,hell, summon the military to find him,son in serious trouble in theUSA? just have a word with the "right " people in the American govt.£10,000,000 4 funeral? next time the local library /health centre hours get cut ? yeah, all that money eh.Crikes ,could perhaps give milk 2 kids with that money.
So I will have to remain confused.
So far as this thread is concerned, you've certainly achieved your aim.
Plus I actually think Blair is hated for the Iraq war. And now more than ever it is evident how wrong he was.
The sinking of the Belgrano was a perfectly legitimate act of war! Even the Argentinans agree!
As for "there's no such thing as society", read the full quote. She's right. Society is made up of individual people. It's not some abstract concept that people can blame their own failings on.
I didn't read social sciences. Didn't live in mining or industrial area. Parents were financially secure. And so on.
Doesn't mean that I cannot understand the ills that came from Thatcherism and the long-lasting negative impact this has had on British society.
I don't think you have to be directly involved to feel anger and frustration, or to want to right wrongs. I mean, anyone with intelligence can surely put themselves in the position of others and can imagine impacts. I've never gone hungry or been homeless. Doesn't mean that I cannot understand that hunger and homelessness are societal problems.
Re: Blair - I'm probably the only person here who was in a position to directly cast a vote for Blair. He was my MP. I voted Green.
We now have a lovely local Labour MP who I'd willingly vote for.
Labour didn't attack core values or communities?
Are you joking? Have you seen the effects of mass immigration in some parts of this country thanks to Labour? Wasn't working for a living once a core value? Look how many children live in families where work is an alien concept, thanks to the array of benefits offered by Labour. Read the threads on here where people question whether they should take on more hours at work when it would mean losing a benefit or paying more tax. That's what Labour did for your core values.
And I voted for them.
Fascinating the way, with the benefit of history and nostalgia, many more people claim to sympathise with the miners than actually did at the time.
Well everyone has ignored my comment about the state of the country when she became pm. It's as if the UK was a happy land of busy state workers when this nasty woman wormed her way into power !
But there are some good points made here which explain the vitriol so I am more understanding.
The thing is Grinkle that you are only remembering part of the issues, the same thing that you are saying others are doing.
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