To wonder if Mrs T would have been loathed less if she was a man?(106 Posts)
I was a teenager in the Thatcher years, many of my school friends were the children of miners and they suffered serious hardship. Then there was the poll-tax, reposessions, etc etc....... So, im not saying she was great. But no worse than Tony Blair following bush blindly into iraq to look for non existent weapons of mass destruction, no worse than Cunty Cameron (who actually i dislike quite deeply because his incompetence and indecision is destroying our country), but I am sure that when he dies no one will be dancing on his grave, he will probably be long forgotten (hopefully - like a bad dream).
It doesn't matter which party is in power, there will be people who dislike them, people who like them.
I think it is wrong that Mrs T is to be given a state funeral, i thiought it was wrong that Diana got one - its a waste of tax payers money and well, a bit naff really.
Does anyone else wonder if it is because, regardless of her policies, she was a strong woman (no one can deny that) that people hold her up as such a hate figure - I think it is unfair. I didn't like her - but all this glee at her death is quite frankly, embarrasing.
I think when George W Bush dies there will be a similar reaction in America. They were similar in some ways, causing recession, against socialism,starting a war that was very polarising and very expensive for the country. Or to be a bit more objective, they were both loved by the right and held up as the saviours of freedom, and they were hated by the left and called evil, with blood on their hands.
So no, I dont think its because she was a woman, if anything I think that would cause people to take her less seriously.
I think you are right OP, and I put it down to expectations. She did some very harsh and unfluffy things. She acted in a way that was much further away from what was expected of women at the time. With a man I don't think there would have been such a gulf between the expectation and the reality.
no, i think many men are loathed. I Hate Cameron too
"*Tony Blair and Cameron are still miles away from upsetting as many people.*
As many people in this country maybe."
I think that this is a major point, Thatcher upset people in ths country, as an international politician she was very good.
The reason why people arn't clambering over anyone to get to blair is because his war didn't affect the local population, I can't think of any politician that has done so much damage to the UK infrastructure and community before or since Thatcher.
I also think that saying that people hate her more because she is a woman belittles what they went through.
I was too young to vote when Mrs T was in power so don't remember much about her - and have watched the documentaries about her over the last couple of days with interest. From them I honestly cannot see why she was so hated by so many. I know there is probably no such thing as a completely un-biased summary of her time in Office, but from what I have seen, the country was in one hell of a state before she came to power - the unions did hold us to ransom, and the heavy undustries were unsustainable long-term.
From what I've seen and read, Mrs Thatcher only pushed ahead with policies that were inevitable and had, in some cases, already been started by the previous government.
So I can't help wondering if the fact that she was a women had plenty to do with it.
There is definitely truth in what you say. Also lots of the gleeful people have no idea what they are talking about, as the Daily Mash points out :
It is a moot point as no other politician - male or female- has wrought so much misery during their leadership. Blair had the political good sense to wreck other people's countries woth his illegal and immoral wars.
Those industries which died were already pretty much dead. They were zombies being supported by taxpayers money. Literally billions were spent propping up unprofitable industries because politician's were too scared of the unions. It literally bankrupted the nation. And what did the unions want? More subsidies, higher pay and someone else to pay.
The unions literally held us to ransom and much of the venom seems to be because Mrs T refused to pay the ransom. The miners stupidly and blindly followed a man who had his own political agenda. It's Scargill who should be blamed. Not MT.
If a man holds a gun to your head demanding a ransom and you refuse to pay. Who is the unreasonable one? You or the man holding the gun?
she had a lot of hateful policies. the language used about her is interesting- she is vile, a bitch, a witch. people feel sorry for her children.
i can't remember similarly gendered language used about other leaders, and there have been much hated one, if not here then elsewhere.
i think hatred of her is understandable, and justifiable, for some.
however the way people talk about that hatred says more about themselves, than it does about her
Thatcher had tried to put forward a different way of closing the pits that would have been less destructive.
Scargill turned it down flat.
The difference between scargill and Thatcher is that scargill is seen as trying to protect the community.
If we are going to use a Kidnapper reference we may as well use freedom fighter/terrorist because its all about perspective.
Genuinely chibi - what do you see as her 'hateful policies'?
The thing is, other male PMs might well be equally unpopular, but is the level of vitriol and hatred levelled at them so many years later still as strong? No, because they have been and gone and replaced by a number of other men.
She stands alone not only because she was a woman, but because she was the only woman.
I noticed Russell Brand's editorial spent a lot of time on the topic of her as a mother, how maternal she may have been, etc.
That's definitely unfair. A "good mother" would almost certainly be seen as unfit for leadership.
Her Gender inspired as much devotion as loathing, it worked both ways. Many men found a woman in power extremely sexy, hence part of why she had such unreserved loyalty and open admiration from many colleagues.
I loathed Ronald Reagan. Nothing to do with gender, he was just a bastard.
Did anyone watch the Jon Snow rerun, Maggie & me? I especially loved the story about how the Queen & Maggie would squabble over who got to do the washing up: they saw it as a rare privilege. But it was exactly the sort of thing they couldn't let get out among the gossip-mongers or it would have undermined their positions as women in power.
There won't be quite the same reaction to GWBush death because Americans have too much respect for the Office of President. Heck, we didn't even have much to say when Tricky Dick died. Hence why the folk who hated RR didn't get heard from after he died, even though so many of us thought he was an incompetent fool controlled by the worst forces of his political party.
Obama maybe, sadly, will get this kind of reaction after his death. The Zealots truly think he's a Devil Incarnate and his supporters aren't Zealots who will rise in kind.
i am not the best person to ask - i did not grow up under thatcherism. the managed decline of liverpool, and the poll tax come to mind.
someone else could discuss this in more detail.
for me it is not about her legacy or whether people ought to hate her-there have been hated politician before- but the language used about that hate
There is another thread on brands in my opinion mysoginistic article.
Of course Margaret thatcher is reviled more as a woman.
If she had been a man she would have been strong, resolute, determined etc.
As one who can remember the country in 1979 Margaret did much good and much not so good as did BLAIRE and BROWN.
I honestly cannot see why she was so hated by so many.
Well count yourself lucky you didn't grow up where I did then. I started school in 1984 and at that point my entire family (with the exception of my Gran) were either unemployed or on strike. One of my earliest memories was them bringing the scab bus through our town.
If you'd seen the pit (which was the sole reason your hometown existed) close despite still being profitable and having huge coal reserves left and your Uncle still not able to make a wage that matches what he earned in 1989 when the pit closed, you might have an idea. (Mind you he was one of the lucky ones, plenty of the people he worked with have been unable to get a permanent job since.(
Or the people of my age, who left school with no hope of ever getting a job that would provide them with a decent living standard or getting a secure place to live as all the council houses were sold off. I don't think it is a coincidence that a load of my ex-classmates ended up on heroin, faced with a future like that.
Or when you go back to your said hometown and the shops are boarded up and you only see old people or the unemployed who have no way out (Like a lot of my peers I left as soon as I could) and realise the town is still in its death throes, you may understand why so many of us cheered the death of Thatcher on Monday night.
The difference between scargill and Thatcher is that scargill is seen as trying to protect the community.
Scargill was trying to 'protect the community' at the cost of everyone else. He didn't care if the mines were unprofitable. As he said, he didn't care if the losses were 'limitless' as far as he was concerned.
Thatcher was PM and had the entire nation to think about. That means she had to consider everyone else who was expected to contribute ever more taxes to support a bunch of miners who had outdated working practices, unprofitable and only still in business because the govt was literally pouring billions of pounds of subsidies into their industry and forcing companies to buy UK coal.
Possibly, by some people. There are people (men and women) who dislike strong women, but there are plenty of better reasons to hate Thatcher than that she was a woman.
I feel the same about Cameron and Osbourne. I hate them all for their policies (and as a politically aware teenager throughout Thatcher's premiership yes I do remember what she did).
Completely agree that the language that surrounds her is unacceptable but would suggest we call all the politicians we hate bastards as it will do for both sexes.
i grew up in an industrial town
the 80s sucked all over
i can totally understand the hate and the cheering
it's the misogynist language i can't get down with
Hi compos, totally respect your post.
It's interesting as I was 15 when maggie was swept to power.
We lived in the midlands. My parents brought their council house, brought shares for the first time and started a business which was helped by maggies policies of free enterprise.( they vote labour by the way)
Me and dh were able to buy our first house with 100% mortgage
I honestly think your attitudes to Margaret thatcher are premised on where you lived in the country in the 80s.
When I mean 'your attitudes' I meant all of ours.
Hate the mysoginistic attitudes to her though.
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