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to ask what you make of this

(118 Posts)
kim147 Mon 11-Mar-13 20:56:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

rentalproperly Mon 11-Mar-13 23:32:14

Not revealing you have a disease should be an offence. Not revealing you are actually a woman... nope, sorry, I don't see how that's an issue. The girls had sex with someone they thought was a man, but was actually a woman... why is that more of a fraud than if some boy had sworn undying love and promised marriage and then dumped the girl the next day? What if the man had been married but swore he was free & single? There's a lot of fraud that goes on to get others into bed, I don't see why this is worse than a whole host of other possibilities.

KobayashiMaru Mon 11-Mar-13 23:35:27

She also lied about her age though, pretending to be a teenager rather than a 22 year old. There is a lot more to it than just the transgender issue, don't make it out to be all about that.

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 23:37:00

Really you don't see why?

She didn't just 'not reveal' she was actually a woman...she told many lies and went to great lengths to hide it.

She abused the trust the girl showed in her and took her virginity knowing full well she would never have been allowed to do that if she'd told the truth.

And a straight person finding they'd had intercourse with someone of their own sex (or vice versa) can leave deep, emotional trauma.

Just like anyone who has been violated.

djelibeybi Mon 11-Mar-13 23:43:10

Lying isn't a good start to any relationship. Lying about one's gender is a serious lie. For a heterosexual to have unwittingly taken part in a homosexual experience - an encounter that could cause long-term doubts, worries, or shame is a dreadful betrayal.

FloraFox Mon 11-Mar-13 23:44:03

People lie about their age all the time and I don't think anyone has been or would be charged for doing that. Being gay or straight is another matter entirely. No-one should be able to foist that choice onto someone else. Surely the reason a trans person would withhold this information would be because they would be worried that the other person would not want to have sex with them if they knew.

YouTheCat Mon 11-Mar-13 23:44:55

I think transgender here is a red herring. It's the deception and sexually predatory behaviour that is the issue, whether male, female, gay, straight or transgender - that is where the law was broken.

I don't believe for a second that most transgender people would behave in that way. I believe a sexual predator would though.

rentalproperly Mon 11-Mar-13 23:47:48

So if she had been a man, but otherwise acted exactly the same (lying about her age, etc)... that would be ethically shite but no case for fraud. So the problem is not obtaining sex by fraud (sadly v common) but obtaining homosexual sex by fraud from a straight person. (Or vice versa.) Is that it?

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 23:49:40

Exactly YouTheCat

You've managed to sum up what my waffling was trying to say blush

If I chose to have sex with a 'man' and found out 'he' was a woman, that to me is sexual assault.

I most certainly would feel utterly violated.

If someone lied about their age, job, income, etc...I wouldn't feel as though they'd sexually assaulted me.

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 23:50:36

Yes that'a it rental

Or 'obtaining sex by fraud' for short.

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 23:50:47


rentalproperly Mon 11-Mar-13 23:54:37

OK, then, I still don't agree it's something that should be prosecuted. Unless it is within UK law to prosecute for fraud over, say, misrepresented marital status. If a man tells me he's free & single, and I find out after sex that he's been lying, and I would never have slept with him had I known... I don't see how that's more or less serious. Someone has still obtained sex by fraud.

MrsMushroom Mon 11-Mar-13 23:54:48

Worra a woman posing as a lad is not the same as a woman who is undergoing a sex reassignment.

MrsMushroom Mon 11-Mar-13 23:56:33

Oh I see Chris has not had surgery! That is very different.

FloraFox Mon 11-Mar-13 23:57:33

In this case, yes but not necessarily just that. I think a similar approach has been taken for disease. I'd also think it might be an appropriate charge if a man used some kind of prosthetic without disclosure. Framing it that way rentalproperty seems to suggest homophobia is behind this but I think it's more a question of having a right to decide your boundaries for your body.

rentalproperly Mon 11-Mar-13 23:58:00

And I absolutely don't see how it's sexual assault. Whatever the gender/marital status/blah blah you believed the person to be, you had sex with them willingly.

WorraLiberty Mon 11-Mar-13 23:58:49

Any human being who sexually assaults another should be prosecuted.

And to me this is definitely sexual assault.

The fraud made that sexual assault possible.

FloraFox Tue 12-Mar-13 00:00:13

rental I think there is a difference in the act of sex which is very important - putting something in another person's body which is not what they thought it was.

WorraLiberty Tue 12-Mar-13 00:01:09

I would allow a man to penetrate me if I wanted him to.

I would never allow a woman to penetrate me because I would not want her to.

If that woman managed to penetrate my body by pretending she is a man and being so cunning that I had no reason to doubt her...then she would be sexually assaulting me without doubt.

rentalproperly Tue 12-Mar-13 00:01:20

FloraFox it's not exactly homophobia I'm getting at, as Worra made it very clear that the opposite (fraudulently presenting yourself as a man to have sex with a gay man), would also be something she would see as an offence.

WorraLiberty Tue 12-Mar-13 00:05:29

I may be wrong but I think if a gay man or woman was penetrated by someone pretending to be gay, they probably wouldn't feel as emotionally fucked up and violated as a straight person being penetrated by someone of their own sex, who they thought was the opposite sex.

However I could be wrong.

thezebrawearspurple Tue 12-Mar-13 00:06:30

Obviously she's purposely targeting underage, inexperienced and naive teenage girls because an adult would notice something was wrong. Those are the actions of a predator. For kids of that age the deception would be very confusing and traumatic.

Nobody has the right to deceive another like that. It doesn't matter whether you are straight or gay, you have the right not to be manipulated into sex with someone of the wrong gender. Lying about gender cannot be compared to exaggerating to about status/money/popularity.

FloraFox Tue 12-Mar-13 00:06:45

Ok rental thanks for clarifying. I inferred an implication that wasn't there.

aldiwhore Tue 12-Mar-13 00:09:25

I support gay rights, transgender rights, I am completely straight and the idea of being conned is this manner is akin to rape. For me the thought of sexual relations with anyone not of the male gender is abhorrent to me, even though I would defend anyone else's right to be who they are... I am amazed some people dismiss that so flippantly. It is a serious crime.

Everyone should have the right to know what phsyicality the person they are considering having sex with has... if it is something that would change that person's mind, it is a serious crime to conceal it.

To argue that once you've agreed to have sex with someone then for them to use a prosthetic is fine, is just wrong to me.

It is a violation.

Why is it different to a man lying about his wealth, job, marital status? Because you don't agree to get fucked by wealth, job or marital status. I would argue this if it was a woman that turned out to be a man or a man who was a woman, or a transgendered person, a straight. Because I am straight, sex with another woman is not for me (I am sure that homosexuals find it equally an abhorrent idea to be with someone of another gender no?)

If I choose to have sex with someone willingly, then it very much does matter what genitalia they have got.

Unless you're pansexual I cannot see how you can think it's reasonable?

rentalproperly Tue 12-Mar-13 00:12:14

An adult having sex with a child is and should be illegal. I think that is unquestionable, and a totally different issue. According to the OP, that's not the charge in this case.

WorraLiberty Tue 12-Mar-13 00:17:02

Spot on aldiwhore

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