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To believe that you are innocent until found guilty in court

(124 Posts)
wonderwoman2012 Sat 16-Feb-13 22:26:34

Very sad to find that so many people think that if charged with child abuse someone is guilty.

The words child abuse make us all go cold and I am the first to think death is to good. However it gets like a witch hunt ever time someone is accused.

I say change the law to make only those found guilty put all over the press.

I have a relative accused at present and waiting to go to court. In our case so much local support from friends and relatives but not everyone has that. (The accuser is the one who has spread it about where we live, not us).

I know people feel they would want to now but surely you only let people you trust around your children.

If charged people can not work with kids and it is normal for bail to include not being around/alone with under 16s.

ComposHat Tue 19-Feb-13 11:05:14

simplesusan almost everything you have written is factually incorrect. I don't anyone sensible thinks or expects a CRB to be a cast iron guarantee that a person isn't a sex offender.

Ian Huntley was allowed to work with children and yet he had committed many crimes against children and was violent with adults too He was investigated but not convicted, the only offence he was ever convicted of was a motoring offence. He was also given his job, before CRB checks were introduced.

The fact is that unless you are convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison, then nothing is disclosed about you

You are wrong. Any cautions and convictions are recorded against you will appear on a standard CRB check. An advanced disclosure will include any information held by Police or other agencies that didn't result in a conviction. Whether this is right or fair is a matter of debate. My view is that this is dangerous, as unfounded allegations that were never put before a jury could be used to disbar a person from a job, or make an employer think twice.

simplesusan Tue 19-Feb-13 10:33:08

You are wrong to believe that crb checks are fool proof. Ian Huntley was allowed to work with children and yet he had committed many crimes against children and was violent with adults too.
The fact is that unless you are convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison, then nothing is disclosed about you.
Ian Huntley was acquitted of rape, that does not mean he didn't do it.
How on earth are parents supposed to know that someone is trustworthy?

Just because he might be regarded as a pillar of the local community doesn't mean anything. It is hard enough as it is for parents without clouding the view anymore.
Yes sometimes there is a witch hunt. Other adults take a more sensible approach. That is the risk with naming the accused.
I personally know a rational woman who until very recently defended Jimmy Saville. She knew him and was quite adament that the "stories" of abuse were lies. We all know how that turned out.

wonderwoman2012 Tue 19-Feb-13 00:32:32

There will all ways be great fall out with cases of family abuses. Some family will take one side and some another. Your own experience sound horrid to loss a mother and a brother.

In our case I can only say what will be will be. I am growing to understand that. I trust him, the evidence, knowledge accuser and the advice I have received. I know some people want to say I am wrong. We can only see.

I have been shook in many ways by this but I still say unless you no the details of the case only the judge and jury get to sentence someone. Not the press or public.

My view on no media coverage until found guilty has changed however. If printing names leads to more survivors reporting rape or assault then name have to be printed. I do think that press hearsay and gossip about these named people should not happen unless found guilty.

dottyspotty2 Tue 19-Feb-13 00:05:41

O what happens if he is found guilty will you still stand by him difficult question I know but I was ostracised by my own mother and brother for doing the right thing.

When I went to court there was no guarantee of him being found guilty if he had been found not guilty didn't take away what he had done to me all those years ago that's all I'm saying about the courts.

wonderwoman2012 Mon 18-Feb-13 23:54:15

Even if it goes to court and he is found not guilty according to some mums that have posted he is still guilty. There never let near children again.

I just think it is down to my self and my hubby to be guided by what they think is best. There is no right answer my children would be horrified if we cut said person out of there lives.

waltermittymissus Mon 18-Feb-13 23:25:38

You are putting your children at risk because you don't know that he's innocent.

wonderwoman2012 Mon 18-Feb-13 23:15:57

simplesusan - not saying it would be parents fault but most abuse happens within the home. At school, kids clubs etc there are checks. One would hope to god that the teacher was not a abuser who has not been caught. Once bailed they would not be able to work with kids anyway.

If a family member was accused I would of thought most people would do what we have done.

Take stock of the situation -What they are accused of, what the evidence is, what you know about both parties (I know in some cases you would not know both parties), what the police and social services are saying, take time and made the best decision for your family.

I would not ever put my children at risk (what mother would). My children older two children are aware of allegations and are dealing with them in a very adult way. They are the only two that would be allow alone with the accused because of their age.

dottyspotty2 Mon 18-Feb-13 23:09:15

FWIW 99% of abusers are seemingly good people it's how they get away with it often for years.

dottyspotty2 Mon 18-Feb-13 23:07:12

No bail conditions in child abuse usually say only supervised contact with children not no contact.

Only normal stipulation is no contact with alleged victim or family.

simplesusan Mon 18-Feb-13 22:42:35

I know people feel they would want to now but surely you only let people you trust around your children.

This was quoted from the op's post.

YNK Mon 18-Feb-13 22:41:01

(2) Police have given him not to be allow with under 16 as on going case. They could of said no contact with children at all but didn't. You would have to meet my family to understand that.

That is supervised contact - no???

simplesusan Mon 18-Feb-13 22:40:39

I know people feel they would want to now but surely you only let people you trust around your children.

So it is the parents fault if their child is abused then is it?


Lots of vile people appear as charm personified.

Yes, I really would want to know if someone around me had been accused of abusing a child. I put the safety of my child above the reputation of people like your relative.

wonderwoman2012 Mon 18-Feb-13 22:14:18

(1) Social services have not said only supervised visits. They came they interviewed everyone they arranged to meet him and they did GP, school checks. Then said no case for them and end of.

(2) Police have given him not to be allow with under 16 as on going case. They could of said no contact with children at all but didn't. You would have to meet my family to understand that.

(3) I have now been the abused and a member of the abused family. I come at this from both places so have very mixed views on media and police handling of these cases. I am still not sure myself.

(4) I may come across as a know it all or having an agenda but I am really very interested in all your views. I have a lot of stuff in my head at the moment so if I offend I do not mean too.

(5) As I can't give details here I know people will not believe he is a good person but that is something that is your right.

(6) I do believe one police officer is in the wrong job. However you get this in all walks of life. In this case the guilty could walk free or the innocent could go to prison, so very not on.

(7)I have been given some forum names that are for people in my situation. To be honest the abuse on here is better than the hand holding of else where. I may have to stand in the same crown court that I did for the assault on me. The comments here may make me cry but they do help to toughen me for what is to come.

Buzzardbird Mon 18-Feb-13 05:22:32

Can't believe this hasn't been pulled. Horrible accusations at possible victim. I do understand the op needing support but the victim has as much right to be believed as the accused surely?

YNK Mon 18-Feb-13 02:34:44

If Childrens Services tell you someone needs to be supervised around children I would not be encouraging any contact until the case is over!
Likewise if I knew someone had been charged with abusing women or children I would not want to go out on a date with them.
The risks are just too high to expose me or my children to any potential harm.
Sorry OP, this may not be what you want to hear, but I would proceed with great caution and try to keep an open mind to the fact that abusers can operate under the radar.

dottyspotty2 Mon 18-Feb-13 02:16:07

I've read through some of your posts and believe me it isn't easy to get an historical case to court probably easier to get a current case to court actually. As very rarely do historical cases have evidence to corroborate the abuse.

dottyspotty2 Mon 18-Feb-13 02:08:10

And not being found guilty doesn't always mean innocent clever barristers can twist absolutely everything its what they're paid for its alway down to if they can win the jury over or not.

dottyspotty2 Mon 18-Feb-13 02:05:16

If there's not enough evidence cps won't even take it to court I'm biased always believe the child children don't tend to lie about these things.

I reported my brother and personally believe if there's a strong case that once they've been charged not just accused they should be named at present its hit and miss he wasn't named until he had been sentenced which to me was wrong as if they're where other victims it prevented them coming forward before the trial.

Cortana Mon 18-Feb-13 01:32:01

Agreed Narked, between the rubbishing of the victim as exact dates can't be remembered to accusing her of being after money it's disgusting these posts are allowed to stand.

Yes innocent until proven guilty. But this man hasn't been in court yet. Until then, nothing has been proved, doesn't mean plastering what is becoming more and more of an identifiable case all over Mumsnet helping.

OP never seems to ask for emotional support. Just reams off over and over why the accused is innocent and what a lying piece of work the victim is. A wise poster on another thread pointed out that OP has been colluding with witnesses, not even "We believe you" but it seems like there will be little chance for a fair trial for the victim.

Narked Mon 18-Feb-13 00:55:26

Helen, 'dealing with the fall out'????

This poster has accused the victim of lying out of spite, of having made previous allegations etc etc.

As far as you can get from 'we believe you.'

AnyFucker Sun 17-Feb-13 23:53:26


HQ believes OP has the right to keep using MN as a pedestal to garner support for someone accused of heinous crimes, and will not delete the thread (only identifying details)

Then I am using my right to tell her to get the fuck off here, and stop making repeated appeals for support and sympathy for the accused

you are very soon going to make your family member googleable, if you haven't already

let the justice system run its course

it mainly fails the victims, so your family member has the odds stacked for him/her

OTTMummA Sun 17-Feb-13 23:43:14

Mmmm, strange, just finished reading this

AmberLeaf Sun 17-Feb-13 22:41:25

Why are you so sure he hasn't done what he is accused of OP?

waltermittymissus Sun 17-Feb-13 22:21:15

Ah - seems they've already disappeared! HQ is too fast for me! blush smile

waltermittymissus Sun 17-Feb-13 22:18:56

I would always feel sympathy too, there's always so many more victims of crimes like this than most people comprehend.

However, some of the posts have been a little uncomfortable to read. I haven't reported but I may do now, so you can see what I'm talking about! smile

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