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(141 Posts)
formallyknownasloveydarling Sun 10-Feb-13 15:45:26

AIBU to fucking hate the stuff?
I have seen young people change from ambitious, clever intelligent people to gormless idiots who don't give a shit about anything.
And I hate that my do smokes it hmm
I particularly despise this homegrown shite which seriously fucks you up.
Why oh why do people use it?
And AIBU to tell dp not to have anything to do with it any more or is that me being too bossy/controlling?
And breathe....

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 09:40:05

yy, you are lucky.

I suppose it's like me being able to have a glass of wine on a Saturday night, whereas I have a friend who is definitely drinking far too much and seems unable to stop sad. But I would never say to my kids "alcohol is harmless, you can just have a drink or two", because I know for some people it can be very harmful.

But I keep reiterating the point that some people smoke dope all day every day - I have never seen a schoolchild (or anyone) standing at a bus stop at 8 am drinking a naggin of vodka. Whereas around here it is becoming more and more usual to see people smoking joints openly at all times of day.

Given a choice, if alcohol was new to the market now (or nicotine for that matter) they wouldn't and shouldn't be legalised. So I can't see the justification for legalising cannabis. Except under prescription for selected medical conditions in the same way as morphine and other controlled drugs have medical equivalents.

Do you see my point? Teenagers these days have lessons in school about drugs, and the message they get is "cannabis is pretty harmless" so a lot of them try it. For many, it does no harm, for some it does a massive amount of harm, and they don't know which group they will fall into until it is too late.

pictish Tue 12-Feb-13 09:50:55

The OP asked 'why oh why do people use it?'

I am saying that I use it because I like it and it suits me. That simple truth faces a barrage of questionable information (from both side of the fence), shouting down and long winded lecturing.

I am smiling because my opinion is as simple as it is.

EllieArroway Tue 12-Feb-13 13:20:16

Teenagers these days have lessons in school about drugs, and the message they get is "cannabis is pretty harmless" so a lot of them try it

Do they, though, Mary? Mine didn't. He came home once and declared dramatically, "You are a drug addict, Mum". I was a bit shock, until he told me it was because of all the caffeine I drink. I think the message he got from those lessons was that no drug is without risk of some kind.

I think schools endeavour to give the facts dispassionately - or at least, that's what they are meant to do.

I have spoken to my DS about alcohol far more than I have cannabis (which I have barely mentioned). This is because of my personal family experience of alcoholism, and it frightens me more. I'm sorry about what you've been though with your DS - if I'd experienced the same thing I'd probably feel as you do.

But my own experience (from my misspent youth, not boring present me) is alcohol = "Who wants a fight?" and cannabis = "Anyone got any Pringles?"

I do think that vulnerable people tend to self-medicate - whether with alcohol or cannabis, or even prescription drugs. So it's often a case of chicken/egg - which came first, the alcoholism or the depression, for example. same with cannabis.

But risk for risk, cannabis is safer, and I think that does matter.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 14:05:21

See, for me, cannabis is much, much more dangerous.

I know no teenage/20s alcoholics - well actually, I know one kid who I think is on his way to having a problem.

I know, literally, through my three teenagers, a hundred kids who have what I would consider to have a problem with cannabis, as they smoke it daily.

Maybe it depends where you live. But here, if you see a teenager smoking outside school in the morning, there is a good chance it's a joint, not a bought cigarette.

EllieArroway Tue 12-Feb-13 14:35:14

Tests have shown that cannabis is less physically addictive than caffeine. I drink caffeine daily - I wouldn't say I have a problem with coffee.

You are assuming that use = addiction. Not necessarily the case.

And guess how many of those teenagers you describe will die of a cannabis overdose? Not a single one. As I said up thread, if my mother had been a dope smoker rather than an alcoholic, she'd probably be alive today.

It does concern me that you know so many teens smoking dope. That's not right, and I don't want to imply that i think it is.

Under 18s should not be smoking or drinking for a host of reasons. That's that.

But adults should be free to make the choice.

tinygreendragon Tue 12-Feb-13 14:44:31

Maryz Maybe it depends where you live. But here, if you see a teenager smoking outside school in the morning, there is a good chance it's a joint, not a bought cigarette.

So does it not make sense to make it less accessible with regulations rather than a free for all like it is now?

curryeater Tue 12-Feb-13 14:54:53

Maryz, I would really appreciate your advice on this. My children are very young at the moment. I really detest weed. I have seen it make people useless selfish lumps. I really regret smoking it, the use of it contributed massively to several "lost years" in my life. When they are older do you think I should tell them this - that I smoked it, that I had a lot of friends who smoked it even more, and it made us massive losers? or do you think the message that would come over would be "even mum smoked dope when young so why not"?

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 16:02:44

They may not die of a cannabis overdose, Ellie, but lots of them finish school early (get kicked out), don't get onto courses, don't get jobs and waste their lives away. They also give up all their sports and interests and simply spend their whole lives either smoking dope, or trying to get hold of it.

And some of them will die - two of ds's friends so far - as a direct result of cannabis. One by suicide and another in a car crash.

And the "not physically addictive" bit is bollocks - and is gradually being recognised as such. If you see the quiverin, twitching wreck that is my son, with the headaches and insomnia and paranoia that takes him over when he tries to stop, you would never say it wasn't "physically addictive".

I don't know the answer to that, curry. I think it won't matter what you did or do - it's what their friends do that is the deciding factor. If their friends have a couple of ciders on a Saturday night, they will. If their friends smoke dope, they probably will, sadly.

I don't think my younger two will ever try it. They have seen what it has done to ds1.

tiny, I don't think regulating it will make a damn bit of difference to the youngsters, apart from enabling older people to get it more easily and give it to them. Here there is a fantastic racket with older people selling prescription drugs to teenagers as well. In the past ds has had a ready supply of vallium and various diazepam-type drugs.

I wouldn't legalise any of them.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 16:07:04

By the way, it doesn't seem to be just where I am - on another thread it was saying that 90% of kids seen by CAHMS with psychosis in Fife are regular cannabis users.

Our local youth drug and alcohol programme tell me that cannabis causes more problems than alcohol and all the other drugs put together.

Whether the mh problems or the cannabis comes first is pretty irrelevant, the end result is the same. Legalising it would be mad.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 16:12:01

See here

The interesting bit is the numbers:

The report found that:

The overall number of under-18s accessing specialist substance misuse services has fallen from 21,955 in 2010-11 to 20,688 in 2011-12.
The number treated for problems with class A drugs, such as heroin, cocaine or ecstasy, fell from 770 in 2010-11 to 631 in 2011-12.
The number seeing specialist services for alcohol misuse fell from 7,054 in 2010-11 to 5,884 in 2011-12.
The proportion of under-18s who left specialist services having successfully completed their programme rose to 77% in 2011-12 from 50% five years ago.
The number of cases seen by specialist services for help with cannabis misuse was up from 12,784 in 2010-11 to 13,200 this year.

13,200 kids seeking help for cannabis misuse is an awful lot (more than 2/3rds the total, and many of those using alcohol and hard drugs would also be using cannabis so 23rds is probably an underestimate) - imagine how many are using it but not seeking help.

EllieArroway Tue 12-Feb-13 16:54:28

on another thread it was saying that 90% of kids seen by CAHMS with psychosis in Fife are regular cannabis users Yes - and I suspect they are probably cigarette smokers too. Repeating myself here but 80% of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes. Do you think cigarettes cause schizophrenia then? Or could schizophrenia make people more prone to risky behaviour & self-medicating?

And the very, very few users who develop psychosis have been shown to have a genetic pre-disposition.

I would truly wonder at children seeking help for cannabis addiction - or any addiction. A few may - but I bet the majority have been marched there by their parents who caught them smoking a spliff.

And, according to your report - about 0.4% of the nations children have problems with substance addiction. It should be 0% of course - but 0.4% is not that many. A world away from the hundreds you see standing at the bus stop smoking it every day & having their lives ruined. My life is filled with teenage boys at the moment, and I'm not aware of any of them having that kind of problem. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - your experiences show that clearly it does, but it's not a national epidemic.

The use of the word "may" is very prevalent throughout that article, noticeably. And it's quite clear that it's talking about "skunk". Even the committed dope smokers I know agree that that is bad news.

But we aren't going to agree clearly. I truly, truly hope that your son finds some peace. I don't know the back story but he, and you, are clearly struggling. It's hard enough bringing up a teenage boy without adding that to the mix & I hope he makes it through.

But he has a great mum on his side and that counts for a lot (Sycophant? Moi?)....even if she does have a very odd chocolate hoarding habit wink*

To any readers/lurkers - this is a joke. *MaryZ doesn't really have a chocolate hoarding habit. Don't want to start any rumours here. Ahem.

EllieArroway Tue 12-Feb-13 16:54:58

Weird bolding thing there hmm

tinygreendragon Tue 12-Feb-13 16:57:51

With the information you have just given me those statistics tell me that the number of people aware of the dangers of heroin, ecstasy and cocaine are rising so the number of people seeking help are falling. Same goes for alcohol with drink aware campaigns. Which is clearly good news.

Now as for cannabis, the information given to the general public from the government and the media is hugely conflicting. Some say that its a cancer fighting drug, some say its a depressive drug, some say it causes schizophrenia, some say it relieves chronic fatigue symptoms and some say its completely harmless and all of these studies are only very recent because scientists haven't been able to study it properly because of its legal status. Which in turn rises the number of people who try it to find out what it does and then need help because it is harmful to them.

It really does come down to what works for one may not work for another for example your son it clearly wasn't helpful for, however I use Sativex to help relieve my MS symptoms and as far as I can tell, it has changed my life for the better.

Independent scientists should be able to study this drug freely and release all of its findings for the adult general public to make up its own mind if they want to take this drug just like adults do with alcohol.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 17:03:16

Well, actually Ellie, we won't mention the stray Christmas selection box I found at the bottom of my wardrobe ...

Seriously though, in some areas cannabis use is a massive and growing problem. And it isn't until you see for yourself the effects on some kids or until you live in an area where it has become scarily predominant, that you really appreciate how awful and how life-destroying it can be.

So I hate the numerous websites saying it does no harm, because the kids read and believe them, because they are stupid.

I do recognise that it could have a medicinal use if it was tested and licensed properly (like other pharmaceutical drugs), but don't think that justifies letting anyone (even adults) self-medicate with it - just as I don't think morphine, or anti-depressants etc should be available without prescription.

Branleuse Tue 12-Feb-13 17:10:58

of course people have bad experiences. There is no such thing as something that is safe for EVERYONE. Chocolate bars and sugary sweets can haver terrible effects on people suceptible to diabetes. if youre susceptible to schizophrenia, maybe dont smoke dope or take acid. If you have a dodgy liver, dont drink alcohol. Anxiety problems - lay off the double espressos and red bull.

ThisIsANickname Tue 12-Feb-13 17:32:14

If you don't like weed, don't smoke it and don't be around people who do. If you are ambivalent, then carry on as normal. If you like weed, then toke up and enjoy.

Drug use is not the problem; drug abuse is. And drug abuse should be a medical issue, not a criminal one.

Feminine Tue 12-Feb-13 17:40:18

And as usual ( just like with alcohol) the defensiveness here is quite boring!

Its no good for you, makes one talk drivel and wastes money.

In a medical situation, I can see the need...I am tolerant. For any other

excuse reason I think its a stupid lifestyle choice.

ObscuredByClouds Tue 12-Feb-13 17:43:07

Hmm. I just wanted to say that there are large numbers amongst those with mental illness who self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. That one definitely leads to the other is a little tenuous.

Cannabis resin or normal weed (not skunk) is actually relatively harmless, particularly if not smoked.

I know I'd rather people smoked joints than drank alcohol; would rather they had the munchies and rambled on about the universe (marijuana), than pick fights and become aggressive (alcohol)

Branleuse Tue 12-Feb-13 20:40:45

id rather anxious people had a smoke instead of a valium. id rather insomniacs had a smoke instead of a temazepam. Id rather a depressed person tried a smoke before trying prozac.

its quite often not even recreational. its just one of those things that gets you through the day.
If you're lucky enough to not Need a little helping hand sometimes, or you need a helping hand but have different coping mechanisms to whoever sits next to you, i just don't see how its fair to judge.

peacefuleasyfeeling Tue 12-Feb-13 22:17:57

I personally really don't like the stuff for a number of reasons. I made some very dangerous decisions and serious mistakes as a young teenager under the influence of cannabis, some of which still have repercussions in my life today, although I concede that these were probably also strongly influenced by the kind of people I was hanging around with (much older, predatory men and criminals, for starters).
I hate the fact that even "innocent" recreational drug use contributes to a much wider web of violence, coercion, criminality, intimidation and fear, but I've seen people get properly flamed for espousing such views here, so I won't labour the point.
As a teacher, I regularly see strong connections between cannabis misuse and dysfunction and disconnection in the lives of both parents and pupils.
I grew up in Sweden, where the anti-cannabis message was incredibly strong and clear in the 80s and 90s; kids "knew" that 1 in 8 of people who experimented with cannabis would be likely to experience some kind of episode of mental ill health, and we grew up believing firmly that cannabis was merely a stepping stone to heroin misuse. True or not, but a powerful deterrent to most.
And as for the point you make, Branleuse (funny, last time I referred specifically to something you'd contributed I was in awestruck agreement, so this is refreshing smile ), my DP has suffered intermittently and periodically from all of the predicaments you list, and the one thing which is sure to compound (or bring on a bout of) the problem is, without a shadow of a doubt, having a smoke. He has learnt this from bitter experience, hanging out with our dudey neighbour...
Oh boy, I could go ON about this stuff, but think I'll stop now.

eslteacher Tue 12-Feb-13 22:34:30

Well at the risk of sounding patronising, can I just say Ellie and Maryz that it's bloody refreshing on here to see two people disagree with each other and debate a pretty sensitive issue from opposite viewpoints, and still remain respectful and even affectionate towards each other. I wish more Mumsnet debates were like this!

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 23:06:49

Thanks riverboat smile.

Keepyourknickerson Wed 13-Feb-13 00:14:53

I have a 19yo dsd who has smoked weed for 3rys, she is jobless, homeless and known to the police.
I also have a 19yo dd who drinks, she is at university.
Wrt the debate that compares aggression in drinkers with that of smokers - I have never seen aggression as frightening as dsd when she is unable to access weed (hence her homeless situation).
I agree with Maryz that one day the truth will come out about this horrific life wasting drug.

Greensleeves Wed 13-Feb-13 00:17:40

That's daft Keepyourknickers

I have a friend who is mid-40s, successful teacher (HOD etc) - has smoked weed regularly since college

I have a friend who went to top schools, top uni, had a great job, wife 'n' two veg etc - is now jobless, homeless and known to the police because he's a drunk.

Your daughters are not a valid representative group for comparing alcohol with weed!

Keepyourknickerson Wed 13-Feb-13 00:22:49

Where did I claim them to be a representative group?!

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