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To want to flounce my current church...

(123 Posts)
trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 03:55:03

and to point out to them that praying for LGBT couples be denied marriage like everyone else and that they should be happy with civil unions is akin to telling African Americans in the 50's to be happy they got their own water fountain?

And also want to tell them what a pile of fucking hypocrits they are?

trockodile Thu 07-Feb-13 08:10:11

Must say I agree mummytime- it is no business of the law, or indeed the church as to what consenting adults do together and if or how they have sex.

mummytime Thu 07-Feb-13 06:32:47

Why should couples get a tax break? I can justify one for parents; children are expensive but society does need and will benefit from them.

The most offensive wedding I've ever been to had the Vicar preach on "Matrimony means the making of mothers"; it had most of the Christian female guests fuming in the ladies after the service.
The prying into the sex lives of the couple enshrined into English marriage law is extremely anachronistic nowadays.

cory Wed 06-Feb-13 23:11:24

So how do you feel about heterosexual women who've had hysterectomies marrying, Mum2Luke? They are hardly going to be in a position to procreate, so is their marriage contrary to the will of God? Or post-menopausal women? Should men have their sperm count tested before the vicar agrees there are no impediments?

Parker231 Wed 06-Feb-13 21:54:17

Mum2Luke - why shouldn't a gay couple have exactly the same rights and options as a male/female couple ? And why should a married couple get a tax break and not a couple who chose to live together but not married ?

trockodile Wed 06-Feb-13 20:50:08

No high horse or hyperbole-genuine question. And I am not saying people/clerics cannot have questions/doubts/bow down to a "party" line (although I think it is a bit patronising to suggest elderly clergy need some sort of let out clause).
However i feel there is a difference between people who say "I'm not sure that I agree/homosexuality feels wrong to me/I am not sure what God thinks" etc rather than people who state that they know without a doubt what God thinks on the subject/condemns other people to hell/refuses to accept any evidence that homosexuality MAY be genetic rather than a lifestyle choice and generally contribute to a society of inequality and bigotry.

demisemiquaver Wed 06-Feb-13 20:35:40

trockodile get off your hysterical high horse- you cant possibly equate these's ludicrous : an elderly cleric with some doubts is now to be branded a racist homophobic by folk like you [shades of 'burn the witch!' here ]

trockodile Wed 06-Feb-13 20:19:09

So do you think that pastors should also be allowed to refuse to marry inter-racial couples because they believe it to be backed by the bible?
Here is an example
Or a black couple?
As it stands no one will be forced to perform a religious marriage ceremony but I cannot understand why people are (generally) not allowed to be racist in this country in the name of religion but homophobia is considered acceptable

demisemiquaver Wed 06-Feb-13 20:05:27

lots of good comments here , HOWEVER, am hoping that any clerics not happy to conduct same sex marriages dont get sued as in possible test cases , and that folk remember that they too are entitled to their opinion [and btw that doesn't have to equate with homophobia ...just uncertainty with a new law...too manyseem to think it's the same as gaybashing which it obv isn't]

stickingattwo Wed 06-Feb-13 19:36:52

Nice one Horatia

HoratiaWinwood Wed 06-Feb-13 19:32:04

Adam and Eve weren't married.

stickingattwo Wed 06-Feb-13 19:17:43

YANBU - I've been recently to a christening, a wedding and a funeral where the priest/ ministers saw fit to drone on about the awfulness of gay marriage and how we must all protest blah blah blah and quite frankly I am SICK of the naked bigotry of it all. It's about equality and churches do not have the right to try to dictate other people's civil liberties.

And as for quoting Leviticus - what about all the other stuff Leviticus says? Menstruating women are 'unclean'? a mans life is worth more than a woman's? Tattoos are an abomination? Stoning people to death, slavery? That nonsense about mixed fibres being worn? Seriously.

sarahtigh Wed 06-Feb-13 19:16:08

I have grave doubts that even if gay marriage is allowed it will be recognized as legal everywhere in the world, obviously those countries that accept gay marriage will be fine but they are a tiny minority

I am sure even legally married gay couples will still have problems in many countries and will be liable to be arrested and charged, if homosexuality is counted as a crime elsewhere it will still be a crime regardless of what UK government legislate

I also think if gay couples can marry heterosexuals must be allowed to enter civil partnerships too, it must be fair both ways

SDeuchars Wed 06-Feb-13 18:38:14

Mum2Luke, what is wrong with just a civil ceremony - doesn't it give the same rights as married couples?

A civil ceremony is a wedding (a marriage ceremony) that does not take place in a church - a wedding in a church is a religious ceremony.

I think you meant civil partnership which is legally similar to marriage but can only take place between same-sex couples and can only be conducted as a civil procedure. According to the BBC, "it offers the same legal treatment as marriage across a range of matters, such as inheritance, pensions provision, life assurance, child maintenance, next of kin and immigration rights." However, those legal rights only pertain in the UK - marriage is mutually recognised between states but the 11 countries that have equal marriage do not recognise UK civil partnerships (and nor do countries where marriage is defined as being between one man and one - or more - women).

SDeuchars Wed 06-Feb-13 18:28:22

Mum2Luke, I ... feel the government should help couples have tax breaks as they were supposed to be putting through a bill but it got shelved as usual.

What's the relevance of this (unless you missed a word out)? If tax breaks are given to couples, won't it be to all couples? Or did you mean only to married couples? or heterosexual couples?

Maryz Wed 06-Feb-13 18:01:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mum2Luke Wed 06-Feb-13 17:48:50

I have nothing against Gay couples but what is wrong with just a civil ceremony - doesn't it give the same rights as married couples? If not, why not? Why is getting married in a church any different? God is everywhere!!

God created Adam and Eve to pro-create which 2 gay men or 2 gay women cannot do on their own. It is in Leviticus 22 of the Bible.

I know I am going to get shot down in flames but I am a committed Christian and feel the government should help couples have tax breaks as they were supposed to be putting through a bill but it got shelved as usual.

I have gay friends and they know exactly how I feel and respect that.

gordyslovesheep Mon 04-Feb-13 21:46:20

Humpty if one partner is Catholic that can be the reason - I know plenty of non Catholics who married in Catholic church

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 21:37:28

MadHair - thank you for the tip. I'll go check it out smile

HumptyDumptyBumpty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:04:25

ethelb - I'm confused - you said:
I am looking at getting married in the next couple of years in the catholic church (Inshallah grin) and this has really put me off.

Why would you, as a Muslim, want to get married in the Catholic Church?

MadHairDay Mon 04-Feb-13 19:30:59

OP you could try Holy Trinity Leicester - I know some folks who were there a few years back and it was good apparently, thriving children's work etc.

So sorry to hear of your experience.

All this makes me so sad. I want the church to be what Jesus expected. A community of people loving one another and reaching out to their community. sad

ethelb Mon 04-Feb-13 19:08:26

@trust just as well.

Weirdly in my entire catholic education no one mentioned the fact than female and male genitalia can slot in together as a reason to get married.

Though he does appear to be overly concerned with it, despite being an archbishop and all.

I am considering composting a "one year on" letter to the bigot next month, regarding my dimished mass attendance despite being one of the few practising female catholics of child bearing age in mass each time I do manage to pull myself together and go.... hmmm.

(BTW a MN thread was featured last year in the Tablet (liberal catholic magazine) about open disent from catholics about the letter against gay marriage)

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 18:50:09

Hm...TBH I imagined worse...which is probably for the best since my blood pressure is already elevated.

ethelb Mon 04-Feb-13 18:29:38

@trust it was the letter last March. Here is a video

The letter is written out underneath.

I am looking at getting married in the next couple of years in the catholic church (Inshallah grin) and this has really put me off.

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:32:51

Walking genitals?! hmm I smell the use of Religion as a method of labelling, dehumanizing and subjugating....How vile!

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Mon 04-Feb-13 17:26:59

The Bishops wrote to us. We replied. The letter defined marriage in the most hideously offensive terms, basically reducing married women to walking genitals. There was no allowance for the Vatican's declaration that sex has a unitive as well as a procreative value.

On a local level, there is supposed to be LGBT pastoral care. That has been spelled out very clearly from 'upstairs', or at least neither O'Conner or Nichols have recanted Cardinal Hume's instructions. Although Vincent Nichols has spoken out against equal marriage he has been broadly supportive of LGBT ministry in his own diocese, although obviously that is slightly up in the air at the moment.

The catechism is clear in its opposition to 'homosexual acts' but is equally clear that LGBT people should be treated with compassion and respect and 'unjust discrimination' should be avoided. This isn't happening in many parishes atm and is an issue for the Bishops. This is not so much about sexual morality but about a failure of compassion and the isolation of people within their own parishes.

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