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To want to flounce my current church...

(123 Posts)
trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 03:55:03

and to point out to them that praying for LGBT couples be denied marriage like everyone else and that they should be happy with civil unions is akin to telling African Americans in the 50's to be happy they got their own water fountain?

And also want to tell them what a pile of fucking hypocrits they are?

Tiggles Mon 04-Feb-13 12:37:31

Trokodile I have always believed (and it is only my assumption) that the term love the sinner, hate the sin, came because of Jesus' treatment of the women caught in adultery, the woman is dragged to Jesus so she can be stoned (note the man isn't dragged with her). Jesus says that whoever has commited no sin should throw the first stone. The eldest walk away first. When the whole mob has left, Jesus tells her to go BUT to sin no more. i.e. he saved her from stoning because he loved her, but he didn't love the sin.

Scholes, I don't think there is any difference between a civil partnership and a marriage in terms of 'legal benefits' received, just the name. I don't understand why if 'gay marriage' is approved therefore why civil partnerships need to be retained. Anybody any ideas?

Scholes34 Mon 04-Feb-13 12:38:33

thanks trust - shall read and digest.

Badvoc Mon 04-Feb-13 12:38:36

I am currently struggling with my church and its attitudes. It's not a very welcoming church.
The vicar is useless, and pastoral care is nil.
He only speaks to me when he wants me to do something.
Am very fed Up.
It's nomination time for parochial church council in April and my time is up. I don't think I will stand again. I am current,ynthensecretary but someone else can do that.
Feeling very low about it all sad

trockodile Mon 04-Feb-13 12:43:52

Part of the problem with Civil Partnership is the fact that it is not recognised internationally afaik. There are other issues too, but at the end of the day it is discriminatory.
LittleMissGreen-I believe that Jesus telling the woman to sin no more indicates that he understands sin and that he has the right to judge. All he tells us to do is love.

slug Mon 04-Feb-13 12:43:59

BalloonSlayer, perhaps you should direct your struggling vicor this way

trockodile Mon 04-Feb-13 12:46:31

mummytime Mon 04-Feb-13 13:13:42

Interesting, but the Census one is a bit spurious. As the Census is secret, and anyway has to list the people in a house, and their gender. Also you don't have to prove what you are saying (you are legally expected to be truthful), so I don't see why a gay couple couldn't say they were married if they felt strongly or had been married overseas.

I actually think the "consummation" bit of married seems a bit out moded nowadays. But I do think there should be an "adultery" for civil partnerships, although "Unreasonable Behaviour" is more often used in divorce as it is easier to prove and covers a wider range of behaviours (eg. cyber affairs).

Funny to think I agree with Peter Tatchell.

trockodile Mon 04-Feb-13 13:27:26

I think the census is just an example-ie any official form where you have to differentiate between marriage and CP-eg work/kids schools etc so could be subject to discrimination. Not sure though.
Yes, it is scary who you sometimes agree with inadvertently-Boris Johnson said something about why don't they just "whack through marriage now?" -think it is one of the few times I could think-"Well said Boris!"

Lariflete Mon 04-Feb-13 14:56:01

This makes me especially angry I have written to the two Bishops who wrote the original pastoral letter and have not had a reply from either so far (I wrote 1 year ago).
I pointed out that only two places in the New Testament condemns homosexuality. One also condemns prostitution, theft etc. and of this list all the other groups are free to marry.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Mon 04-Feb-13 14:58:37

Lari, was that the Bishop's of Westminster and Southwark?

I wrote to them and have been ignored.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Mon 04-Feb-13 14:59:20

I used correct apostrophes in my letters blush

ethelb Mon 04-Feb-13 15:14:55

@lari was that catholic or anglican?

OP YANBU I haven't been to church since I moved away from my last one (the priest there was foul and I stopped going) and I haven't ventured into the local one for fear I will have to listen to a load of bidding prayers for politicans voting against gay marriage angry again.

The Christmas sermon at my parent's church was grim, the priest banged on about threats to family life with all the children on the altar ffs.

I keep on yearning for the wonderful priests I had in my parish as a child. i feel that church has just gone away and I am very very sad about it sad

ghoulelocks Mon 04-Feb-13 15:25:58

My church has at the moment a lesbian rector and gay supporting priest, the last priest was gay. About 1/2 the servers are gay, sunday school is run by a lesbian couple, a few same sex families in the congregation...and it's very stuffy high church anglican on first glance! Maybe I haven't noticed it's a lgbt church??

Seriously though, for all who think christians are anti-gay we are a large thriving city church (4 sunday school age groups totally nearly 100 children) with a congregation of generations of local family who just don't bat an eyelid at other's family lives.

trockodile Mon 04-Feb-13 15:48:46

That sounds great Ghoule-would you mind naming it? (Or dropping hints as to area etc!)

ghoulelocks Mon 04-Feb-13 15:51:41

It's London...

ghoulelocks Mon 04-Feb-13 16:24:17

Take it you're not in West London then...

amicissimma Mon 04-Feb-13 16:54:55

Tuppence, try Acts 10 v 28b (NIV or similar)

trockodile Mon 04-Feb-13 16:57:06

We're moving back from Germany-am looking for something in Bristol. Maybe someone else will be near you-seems a few of us have had enough of Christianity being defined by homophobia. Thanks Ghoule.

DumSpiroSpero Mon 04-Feb-13 17:01:12

YANBU. We left our church after 10 years regular attendance, wedding, our confirmations & DD's baptism for much the same reason.

We'd been a little hmm about a few other things but it was being asked to pray for acceptance of the gay & lesbian community then 'told' to sign a petition against gay marriage on the way out that finally made our minds up.

Very sad as on a personal level we had lots of friends & support there but couldn't in all conscience continue going.

RichardIII Mon 04-Feb-13 17:04:14

I can't see what writing to bishops will achieve.The church is supposed to take it's party line from 'him upstairs' not bow to congregational popular demand.

weegiemum Mon 04-Feb-13 17:09:08

Partly over this, we have left our large Baptist evangelical church in Glasgow (there were a lot of other issues!) and moved to a small local "community" baptist church. Lots of African and Iranian asylum seekers, many very 'broken' people. Where what we find is love, acceptance, a healing hand to hold, a chance to get involved though we're not perfect.

Two of the most generously Christian people I know are in a CP. I can't condemn them, because they're much "better" Christians than me!

RoadtoSussex Mon 04-Feb-13 17:21:34

OP, did it begin with E and end in M by any chance?

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:25:56

RoadtoSussex - you mean the church? No, it's called Living Rock and I have no problem in naming them. They have open doors to the public therefore I'm not giving out delicate information...

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Mon 04-Feb-13 17:26:59

The Bishops wrote to us. We replied. The letter defined marriage in the most hideously offensive terms, basically reducing married women to walking genitals. There was no allowance for the Vatican's declaration that sex has a unitive as well as a procreative value.

On a local level, there is supposed to be LGBT pastoral care. That has been spelled out very clearly from 'upstairs', or at least neither O'Conner or Nichols have recanted Cardinal Hume's instructions. Although Vincent Nichols has spoken out against equal marriage he has been broadly supportive of LGBT ministry in his own diocese, although obviously that is slightly up in the air at the moment.

The catechism is clear in its opposition to 'homosexual acts' but is equally clear that LGBT people should be treated with compassion and respect and 'unjust discrimination' should be avoided. This isn't happening in many parishes atm and is an issue for the Bishops. This is not so much about sexual morality but about a failure of compassion and the isolation of people within their own parishes.

trustissues75 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:32:51

Walking genitals?! hmm I smell the use of Religion as a method of labelling, dehumanizing and subjugating....How vile!

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