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Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

(449 Posts)
garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:21:31

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down’s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ‘suspected idiocy’, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ‘euthanasia’ of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark’s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

garlicblocks Sun 03-Feb-13 14:50:45

I'm worried about that, too, Kate.

The guidelines still look really unclear to me - although it's definite that side-effects of medication will no longer count.
For example, some schizophrenia meds cause palsy but patients will not be palsied (even if they're shaking in front of the examiner) because the computer says side effects don't exist.
Other way around, MS meds cause depression. But an MS patient who's immobilised by depression is not depressed because the system says his depression doesn't matter. And, as he can get around using imaginary aids he does not possess, he's not even immobile!

I read something that suggested we're allowed to have physical and mental symptoms if you have both diagnoses. I'll be testing this very shortly, as am trying to get back on ESA ...

... despite being 'employed' by the work programme! Currently I don't exist confused

Ken, have just seen your message to me smile Will PM you later. <curious>

CFSKate Sun 03-Feb-13 10:34:00

ParsingFancy - what you describe will affect me. I have ME, and I can't think properly anymore, but that won't count, only the physical problems will count.

LaVolcan Fri 01-Feb-13 14:39:05

And not only that BangOn we like to think that we are more superior than ancient societies and that we are civilised. Although as Ghandi said when asked about western civilisation he thought it would be a good idea.

(Been dying to work that one it.)

BangOn Fri 01-Feb-13 14:27:06

It's simply not true to say 'ancient peoples' did not approve of keeping disabled people alive, for economic reasons. You're assuming that compassion is a luxury of the materially rich, invented roughly around the same time as the combustion engine. What total bollocks. Love isn't the mould that grows on top of a comfortable consumer society, when we've given up hunting & g & all that primitive stuff.

Dawndonna Fri 01-Feb-13 14:24:23

But nobody is picking on the disabled Parsing, or singling them out!
We're just suffering from a major overreaction!

ParsingFancy Fri 01-Feb-13 14:06:30

And I didn't realise ATOS had actually been filmed telling assessors not to pass too many people, regardless of what they actually see in front of them.

"The trainer tells trainee assessors: "If it's more than I think 12% or 13%, you will be fed back 'your rate is too high.'" When [Dr] Bick questioned how the company could know in advance the precise proportion of people who needed to be put in this category, the trainer replied: "How do we know? I don't know who set the criteria but that's what we are being told."
Bick asked: "So if we put 20% in, we would get picked up on?". He was told by the trainer that, in that scenario, his cases would be reviewed."

This was broadcast and published in July last year.

ParsingFancy Fri 01-Feb-13 13:54:58

OK, have found out some more.

The changes to the disability test that went through this week include:

a) Any risk resulting from being found fit for work can be ignored if a reasonable adjustment, or taking prescribed medication, would significantly reduce that risk. This may include cases where the risk is still considerable - if it is significantly reduced by hypothetical adjustments, it can be ignored. There is no stated requirement to take into account side effects of such medication.

b) People will score points on the physical descriptors only if they have a specified physical condition, and score points on the mental descriptors only if they have a specified mental illness. Which means some impairments will be disregarded for MS, ME, head injury, diabetes, kidney disease, and all the other things which can affect both. Also, if the medications taken under (b) have side effects in the "wrong" category, this too will be disregarded (eg strong painkillers which have a cognitive impact).

It's clear (b) is an outright change to the stated policy intent of government, which was that the impact of impairments be considered regardless which condition caused them.

These changes have been slipped through parliament by describing them as a "clarification" and thus exempt from parliamentary consultation. It's clear they are actually major changes, but on Monday they became law by default.

LaVolcan Fri 01-Feb-13 13:30:51

Although not for the disabled and then whoops Jesse Owens went on to be the outstanding athlete. Not what Hitler had in mind.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 01-Feb-13 13:09:55

Hitler put on a FABULOUS Olympics.

LaVolcan Fri 01-Feb-13 12:25:33

on what a few nutters have said.

But didn't people think that these were just a few nutters and hotheads in the late 20s and early 30s?

Dawndonna Fri 01-Feb-13 11:31:31

No, Hitler didn't do those things Ken. He did other things for show, though.
Bread and Circuses, dear, Bread and Circuses.

ParsingFancy Fri 01-Feb-13 10:06:53

And before anyone says the UK isn't Greece, thanks, I know.

What I'm saying is that what's happening in Greece is textbook. It's predictable. Create the right circumstances, you have a good chance of getting extremism which protects its core group by scapegoating others. Details will vary according to local conditions.

Kendodd Fri 01-Feb-13 09:56:40

So... who are they going to vote for?

Vote for the Green Party

Kendodd Fri 01-Feb-13 09:54:54

"This whole thread, apart from Hecate and Dawndonna just says 'disabled people are inferior. Who'd want to be disabled. Cos us temporarily abled bodied people are so much better'"

Really? Where did I say that?

BTW, IMO paper exams are a very crude measure of intelligence.

I think it is a ridiculous, offensive and insulting to the general population, assertion that "Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again" based on what a few nutters have said.

As I said earlier, laws have been put in place recently to protect the rights of disabled people and we've just had the brilliant Paralympics. I know things are far from perfect but still, I don't remember Hitler doing those things, maybe somebody will come on and correct me though.

ParsingFancy Fri 01-Feb-13 09:52:15

I was talking about this to DP last night, and he said, "How many more years till an election?"

But that's the other thing that's screaming "30s" at me.

By the next election, we'll have had the cuts to council tax benefit, huge conditionality applied to working people, and more conditionality on housing. By the next election, almost everyone will have been hit - the poorer the harder. And all three major parties are complicit.

Enormous numbers of people will vote none of the above.

So... who are they going to vote for?

We'll be absolutely ripe for a new political force which promises the earth - or even just food on the table. It doesn't matter if what they're promising is realistic, they just need to get through the doors in large enough numbers.

It's already happening in Greece.

LaVolcan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:32:53

apart from Hecate and Dawndonna just says 'disabled people are inferior'

Not just those two - quite a few more of us agree with them.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Thu 31-Jan-13 21:14:40


My DH is inferior to NOBODY hmm

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:09:52

I'm just watching That Panorama programme on sky +, horrible, just horrible.

By the way I know somebody who is agoraphobic, suffers from severe anxiety and depression hasn't left the house in years. He's also got various other physical health problems and on a variety of pills which themselves cause a lot of side effects. He was called in for a medical and couldn't go due to the fact that he's agoraphobic and can't leave the house. eventually after various phonecalls and weeks of stress and worry, it was agreed that someone would visit. Apparently the person who came out was very off and didn't have a clue about his condition, accused him of 'refusing' to attend the medical.

Eventually he did win his benefit back through appeal, but not after months of stress and worry.

freetoanyhome Thu 31-Jan-13 20:39:57

clearly not you Penelope

PeneloPeePitstop Thu 31-Jan-13 19:58:29

Why would I deem my family, and myself, inferior?

freetoanyhome Thu 31-Jan-13 19:56:29

Nearly. I barely managed O levels. He has a PhD in something I cant even pronounce. It was the stupid assumption that you need equality of intelliegnce that annoyed me. And such a horrible attitude to those with lower IQ.
This whole thread, apart from Hecate and Dawndonna just says 'disabled people are inferior. Who'd want to be disabled. Cos us temporarily abled bodied people are so much better'

Kendodd Thu 31-Jan-13 17:59:51

"Balls. My partner easily has an IQ double mine. We've been married 30 happy years."

Really? A score of about 100 is average, a really tiny tiny % of people are thought to have a score of nearly 200 (think Stephen Hawking). Obviously IQ test aren't perfect and maybe you're married to Stephen Hawkins?

Darkesteyes Thu 31-Jan-13 17:45:51

Darkesteyes Thu 31-Jan-13 17:43:21

From the above link.

He was abandoned at the top of the stairs, after being told not to use the lift.

Speaking to the Independent, Mr Meeghan said that even though he can tackle stairs with help, "it was a highly stressful situation and I felt like it was far too risky.

"I was worried that flames might come up the stairs and that I might fall or something. It wasn’t a drill.

Darkesteyes Thu 31-Jan-13 17:42:11

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