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Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

(449 Posts)
garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:21:31

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down’s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ‘suspected idiocy’, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ‘euthanasia’ of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark’s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

aleene Mon 28-Jan-13 13:50:57

Op is suggesting that there is choice. Compulsory abortion is an abhorrent idea, to most people. Where are your statistics that more people are choosing to have a disabled child?

LovelyLaduree did you read the Daily Mail instead of Spot the Dog as a child?

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 13:54:29

I agree that loveladuree's comments are repugnant, but I don't think they should be removed. Once we start brushing these comments under the carpet we can pretend that they don't exist and we have nothing to worry about.

As Hecate says, most of us don't have much experience of what is happening to people with disabilities and hence we are ignoring the situation, instead of being up in arms about it.

TranceDaemon Mon 28-Jan-13 13:54:42

I find it astonishing that so many people are sitting back and just watching while the sick and disabled are demonised by the scumbags in power at the moment. Astonishing and deeply depressing. People seem to think that they are somehow 'different' from those who are currently having their lives decimated whilst being labelled as 'scroungers'. It actually makes me feel so fucking angry I could explode.

What the fuck happened to compassion, empathy? Why do people think that they are somehow immune from sickness or disability? Who knows how your life could change tomorrow.

This 'I'm alright Jack' Tory propaganda bollocks makes me fucking sick.

fromparistoberlin Mon 28-Jan-13 13:56:54

lovely laduree

easy tiger, to make comments like that on a site that as as SN friendly as MN is frankly cruel

But thats what you wanted right, to upset people??

well done, slow clap. you knew exactly what you wanted when you posted that right?

tabulahrasa Mon 28-Jan-13 14:10:33

Geoffrey Clark isn't just someone spouting off on a website though - 27% of voters either agreed with him, didn't disagree with it enough to vote for someone else or voted for someone without knowing what he believes in....

More than a quarter of adults who voted in Gravesham!

Ullena Mon 28-Jan-13 14:14:10

I promise to stick my head over the parapet for anyone being mistreated.

Have done so before, several times. More people need to try it, imo. It gets less scary each time. I got punched once for it...turns out I have a mean left hook and the linguistic skill of a sailor when required.

As you were [salutes grandad's memory]

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 14:23:28

The owners if the daily mail were hitler admirers and nazi sympathisers.
They don't like to advertise that fact, though.
Most atrocities start during times of economic recession and racial tension.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:25:43

*If I had time, yes I could Katy but I am about to go to work. I don't think I need to argue the point though. By my own morals it is wrong. My morals come from me and my upbringing which didn't include religion. Yours did include religion."

Manic and Garlic I would say that your upbringing did have religion, even if it's just the vestiges of it. You have the beliefs you do about human life because you were raised in a society that has those beliefs. There are cultures (or there were) that have very different beliefs. Killing the elderly or unwanted infants was quite common and openly accepted in quite a few cultures. Pre-Christian Europe killed unwanted infants (Rome, Iceland) and performed human sacrifices (Celts.) While Christianity is not unique in teaching those things are wrong, it is the reason why Europeans no longer do those things.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:30:40

Orwellian and paris, it's not the comments of a solitary dickhead that concern me. The fact he got a 27% vote indicates growing support for the disenfranchisement, perceived uselessness and subsequent elimination of citizens with disabilities.

The Useless Eaters website Sunny linked to makes a very clear argument that current social, political and academic trends reprise those of 1933-48 Germany.

KKK, I disagree that recognising the systematic murder of a quarter of a million disabled people in any way devalues the memory of Jews, Gypsies and Blacks murdered under the same programme. What an odd thought.

I agree that loveladuree's comments are repugnant, but I don't think they should be removed. - Neither do I. Pretending it's not happening allows it to happen in front of us.

Ullena - good for you! And your grandad grin

thesnootyfox Mon 28-Jan-13 14:32:21

It makes me feel sick when I think of how selfish and repulsive lots of people are.

Its not just bigots like the UKIP guy I have family and friends who are expressing some distasteful views at the moment.

I weep for the future.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:37:24

Katy. A German bishop finally raised an outcry against the extermination programme - after more than a decade of murders, and following increasing dissent from other quarters. Although the gassing programme then ceased, disabled children and adults continued to be systematically killed in 'care homes' and hospitals, where forced abortions and sterilisations also carried on for several more years.

One Church spokesman made a difference. Countless others mutely complied. You say While Christianity is not unique in teaching those things are wrong, it is the reason why Europeans no longer do those things. It's been pretty ineffective at that. Let's hope it can buck its ideas up, eh?

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:40:44

slhilly, I have read what they've said in context. I admit that I've read more of Peter Singer's writing than Baroness Warnock's, but I've read them. And, I have said that their logic is flawless.

For all I know, the world might actually be a better place if we removed a lot of the burden (especially those who aren't enjoying their lives, anyway.) Fewer, but happier lives.

I think people are already getting there. I hear a lot of people saying in discussions on euthanasia that they'd hate to be a burden on their children. I think in a few decades it might be considered selfish to insist on sitting around drooling and reeking of pee and just bringing everybody down.

I mean, it's legal to drive a Range Rover in the city, but we do rather look down on it, don't we?

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:43:42

Fuck me. Is that your opinion as a Christian, Katy?


Ullena Mon 28-Jan-13 14:48:24

Grandad always had war stories. He also emphasised that individual people had to be the ones to watch out for one another, as governments couldn't be relied upon or trusted to not go bad...

I am glad he didn't live to see all this. It would have broken his heart.

BreconBeBuggered Mon 28-Jan-13 14:51:27

Jesus wept, Katy. I don't remember that bit from Sunday School. I thought it was more about bearing one another's burdens than wiping out burdensome relations.

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 14:53:44

Diedrich Bonhoeffer did try to raise awareness of what the nazis were doing.
He was - pretty much - ignored.
The Red Cross also knew about the camps as early as 1941.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:57:56

Garlic No. My opinion as a Christian is that suffering has value and that we should simultaneously embrace our own suffering while trying to reduce our neighbour's suffering while always respecting the sanctity of life. I won't bore you with the theology of it, but it's to do with the belief that God chooses to suffer alongside us and shows us that there is always hope.

But, without this belief - which is possibly just a silly superstition that makes me feel guilty when I touch myself and makes me sound like some sort of backwards American idiot when I talk about it publicly - I might actually believe what I've been saying. After all, highly-regarded and Very Important Philosophers, who are given peerages and chairs at prestigious universities believe it.

petitepeach Mon 28-Jan-13 14:59:04

garlicblocs I think that useless eaters should be compulsive reading... It has made me feel sick to the pit of my stomach...... Very disturbing sad

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:07:06

The strivers vs skivers rhetoric is very damaging, but I think that comparing 2013 with the 1930s is ridiculous.

For one thing, we are much more connected now. The thing that is enabling idiots like Geoffrey Clark to be heard beyond Gravesham, Kent is the very thing that would stop this going further.

When a comment such as that is made, and it inevitably goes viral, with FB and Twitter imploding in rage, we do have to remember that it was the comment of one person.

I find your posts most disturbing. Many people are not religious, but would find the killing of disabled or elderly abhorrent.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:09:56

I've debated morality among the godless at some length on threads in the religion board, Katy. I'm both irreligious and moral although I gather some don't believe that's possible. I've also advanced evolutionary theories as to why compassion is hard-wired in mammals, especially humans. The religion board is a suitable place for these discussions, or you could start a new one here or in Chat.

I can't see any advantage to you in trying to show christianity is the only defence against cruelty. For one thing, you'd lose; the church has a poor record on the whole - I hope it'll do better this time. For another, you risk sounding as though you want all non-christians to support 'euthanasia'. That would be unchristian of you.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:11:04

MmeLindor, I know you do. I don't think that only religious people find the idea repugnant. But, the fact remains that there are people - highly respected people - who openly argue that we should kill the infirm. It's my opinion that they are going to gain ground.

I don't know if it will result in forcible killing or if people will just be very strongly urged to do the "ethical" and unselfish thing.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:11:54

The strivers vs skivers rhetoric is very damaging - and is the same as that used in the recession of the 1930s. In Germany.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:13:37

garlic I specifically said that Christianity is not the only defense against cruelty. I said that it's not unique. I'm sure there are many philosophies that have the same view on the subject of euthanasia.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:15:20

yes, Garlic, but you cannot reduce the whole argument to that one point.

There was no internet is 1933. There was no previous holocaust to scare people from going too far. There was a totally different society.

It is wrong to use the Holocaust in this way, imo.

Yes, I speak out against anyone who partakes in benefit bashing, or uses disabilist language, but I reject the idea that we are heading that way again.

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