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To wonder why so many women are in denial about misogyny?

(807 Posts)
seeker Tue 22-Jan-13 21:31:38

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

I just don't get it.

TheOriginalLadyFT Tue 22-Jan-13 23:06:25

Google it, thebody

AnyFucker Tue 22-Jan-13 23:07:01

Is there a point you are labouring towards, thebody ?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 22-Jan-13 23:07:45


Lovecat Tue 22-Jan-13 23:10:46

YANBU. Boils my piss.

LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake Tue 22-Jan-13 23:11:45

Thank you for posting the link to Mary Beards blog - what a shower of shites those fuckers were. Well done her for responding.

I do think her appearance is striking. Because of social conditioning that is the first thing I noticed about her on that brilliant History series I watched. The very first thing I thought was 'oh good, this will be a serious programme and not some fluff' because of how she looked. I caught myself in this depressing thought - that my first thoughts were about her appearance and how normal she looked (normal as in all the lecturers I saw at uni in the 80's) sad.

itsnotjustaslap Tue 22-Jan-13 23:16:26

women have far more empathy for men, than men have for women.

Female behaviour is under far more scrutiny than men; while bad behaviour from men is always excused and this is expressed in thousands of ways from the seemingly trivial, to the most serious.

You can see it in every aspect of life from complaints that men don't pull their weight in the house (drudgery of routine and unseen tasks are beneath me dear, but not for you) to many poor relationships where there is a inbuilt power ratio biased towards the man; to the denial of widespread rape because women are in a state of perpetual consent and have to look sexy, young, attractive and up for it all the time.

And when women are deemed to be past their prime, that is around 40+ they are simply invisible and disappear from mainstream media, TV presenting / adverts etc as if subject to some invisible cull that just does not apply to men. There are no female David Attenboroughs or Steven Fry's celebrated as treasures of the nation for their knowledge over their appearance.

I don't think there is an innate imbalance of the sexes. It is cultural and therefore a culmination of many choices that, in effect favour a man; from the seemingly arbitrary valuation of people by how much they earn which on the whole tends to reward men more than women; not only by effectively penalising time taken away from work to raise children; but by deeming traditionally female occupations such as caring, catering, childcare as massively inferior by pay.

Our scrutiny of women starts from birth; from the masses more baby girl clothes than boys in shops (the message being that we have to judge the appearance of even baby girls in a way that doesn't apply to boys) to a culture that sells anxieties to pre-teens and women that we are not good enough without make-up, sexy clothes, lipstick, to attract that cute guy etc to sell products in a vicious cycle where profits end up generally in the pockets of rich men (most CEO's are male), serves to keep women in their place as playthings of men, and fuel more anxieties which sell more products etc.

McNewPants2013 Tue 22-Jan-13 23:16:55

I belive males in the public do get a back lash from what they wear.

Perhaps I am getting the wrong end of the stick, but males are getting more into fashion

McNewPants2013 Tue 22-Jan-13 23:17:20

larks35 Tue 22-Jan-13 23:21:35

I had to google Mary Beard (I knew the name but couldn't remember why) and realised I had watched her brilliant documentary on the Romans and thought "I wish my lecturers had been that passionate and interesting". I didn't see her on QT and hadn't realised she had been cyber-bullied since. Good on her to highlight what her experience means about the way many people (not just men) deal with being disagreed with.

She has been attacked for her looks in ways that are vile, because she suggested that immigration is not a problem for our public services. IMO she has won that arguement hands down as she hasn't got personal with anyone but complete strangers have tried to ridicule her (and I suppose her point of view) by vilely slating the way she looks.

I'm glad she isn't taking it sitting down, I'm glad she is publisicing the attacks she has had. YANBU OP, this attack on Mary Beard is completely unacceptable.

LauriesFairyonthetreeeatsCake Tue 22-Jan-13 23:23:41

Mildly mocking and ribbing a rich, powerful man is not exactly the same as the utter onslaught of shit directed at women in the articles of the daily mail website every day wink

I'm not sure I've ever seen an article on the daily mail website that isn't critical of a woman or reference her appearance in some way.

It's almost a challenge.....

FelicityWasCold Tue 22-Jan-13 23:24:59

McNew you are right in the sense that DB does get some of the same abuse usually aimed at women- this is often remarked upon and he is rebuked for being 'feminine' or having a 'girls voice'

However your one example does not a trend make.

larks35 Tue 22-Jan-13 23:25:30
I think this is in a different league to the Beckham story NHPs.

LRDtheFeministDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 23:27:46

I don't get it either.

I think MB is brilliant for standing up about this. She's on women's hour tomorrow about it, btw.

seeker Tue 22-Jan-13 23:29:54

Mcnewpants- have a read of MB's blog- then see if you think the Beckham story is comparable.

Greythorne Tue 22-Jan-13 23:33:58

Having your face superimposed onto a photo of female genitalia


An article which says your white socks are a style fail


I know which one I would choose.

AnyFucker Tue 22-Jan-13 23:43:56

mocking a very rich man's choice of footwear


superimposing a woman's face onto a vulva, intimidating threats about "knowing where she lives" and bringing her children into the vile attacks

comparable ?

don't be so fucking stupid

McNewPants2013 Tue 22-Jan-13 23:47:26

All in all I think it is wrong to make vile comments about how someone looks.

It's doesnt matter if its mild mocking or as in this case hardcore in comparison.

seeker Tue 22-Jan-13 23:48:45

Ah. I do think you might be missing the point rather............

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Tue 22-Jan-13 23:53:57

I'm glad Mary Beard has spoken out, it is horrifying the level of abusive rubbish that has been directed at her. I do feel that some people are trying to put her back in her place or more accurately in the place they think she should occupy. I think they find her threatening because she doesn't fit in to their very narrow and stereotyped view of women.

I think its the low level day to day misogyny that needs challenging: the focus on appearance; young female presenters paired with old male presenters; referring to male sports people as men and women as girls (yes you BBC in your Olympic coverage). It all serves to re-inforce the perception that its really a woman's role to be young, attractive and not too assertive.

I definitely don't like the idea of belittling men to try and improve the position of women but I don't think anyone (male or female) should be allowed to get away with belittling women to reinforce a stereotype.

AnyFucker Tue 22-Jan-13 23:55:35

< sigh >

TheCollieDog Tue 22-Jan-13 23:59:08

What do they get out of insisting that men are subject to exactly the same level of discrimination and abuse as women? That Mary Beard, for example, would have been treated in the same way if she had been a man?

Wasn't it Germaine Greer who said that women couldn't afford to realise just how much men hated them?

We live in a patriarchy.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude Wed 23-Jan-13 00:01:20


Beckham is being gently mocked for a fashion faux pas but he is still regarded as a national treasure and held in a fairly high degree of respect.

Mary Beard is a world expert in her field of study and is being subjected to crude sexually explicit abuse because she expressed an opinion some people disagreed with. If a male historian had made an identical comment I don't think people would have posted remarks on their appearence or sexually related insults to disagree with them. Mary Beard was subjected a particularly crude series of attacks because she was a woman who spoke her mind.

delboysfileofax Wed 23-Jan-13 00:48:19

To be fair though there are men whose appearance is commented on- usually when people dont like their message; david starkey, nick griffin etc all have their appearance mentioned on internet sites.

In their case, and that of Mary's it seems to be as soon as someone disagrees with what they say they almost feel the need to back it up with a qualifier that they are ugly/look like some sort of animal to boot. Its unbelievably childish to attack someones physical attributes instead of their views but I think it happens to both sexes.

seeker Wed 23-Jan-13 00:50:18

"Its unbelievably childish to attack someones physical attributes instead of their views but I think it happens to both sexes."

I'd love to see some examples of this happening to men, I really would.

delboysfileofax Wed 23-Jan-13 01:03:25

Read the comments section of the guardian to see how Nick griffin and starkey are judged on their looks. Also john mckerrick.

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