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AIBU to wonder how she is even pregnant???

(58 Posts)
TheSecondComing Thu 10-Jan-13 17:00:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood Sat 12-Jan-13 09:23:20

Some v good and insightful posts on here.

Julia, I know of several cases like the one you described and clearly these families have their ups and downs like any other family; some of course with more input and support than others.

I also know of cases were when a pregnancy was only found late on, the baby was adopted. Or, were the decision was made that it was in the best interest of the woman to terminate the pregnancy.

I think that just shows that people with LD face the same dilemmas and difficult life decisions as the rest of us. The added challenge is assessing how much of the decision making can be left to them, their carers, when HCP need to be involved and when SW/legal avenues.

The most upsetting case of a termination I've had dealings with not that long ago was a NT schoolgirl whose father had decided she was 'getting rid of it'. She never had any say in the matter, much as I and the counselling nurses at the Woman's Unit tried. It was not so much that anybody thought she ought to NOT have a termination, but that the decision had to be hers. And guess what, we are now dealing with the MH fall-out from that event sadangry. And that had nothing to do with LD...

JuliaSqueezer Fri 11-Jan-13 15:32:44

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 11-Jan-13 15:07:39

Perhaps we could also consider being nice to families looking after people with LD’s too? We’ll be awake at 3am (actually it’s 1.30 and 4am here) for the rest of our lives, dealing with the repercussions of decisions made by SW’s now worrying about another client, moved on, or long left the field.

I agree. I know it can seem like SWs float in and out. For the record, I left the job. I had to (emigrated). I still think of the clients I had and the carers who made their lives better, my life better and saved the country untold money. They are some of the best people I will ever meet. If there was any way of thanking two in particular, the sister of one client and the mother of another, I would.

bottleofbeer Fri 11-Jan-13 12:14:41

I'm seriously considering going into SW myself and have been for a while.

PandaOnAPushBike Fri 11-Jan-13 11:22:53

Gosh I was a bit shocked by this thread. It shows how people are still shockingly ignorant about disability ( not their fault, disabled people are sidelined by society).

I used to work with young learning-disabled people and they certainly had sex, most of the girls were put on the pill or injection by their parents, anxious that this type of situation didn't arise.

I'm not, I've come across it before on this forum. I have a daughter who is high functioning autistic. She is extremely intelligent and capable in some areas but emotionally very immature, lacks impulse control and often doesn't connect consequences with actions (although on an intellectual level she does). She got into a relationship when she was 16 (is still with him now 4 years on) so I sought advice on here about how best to proceed with contraception for her. I got ripped apart because I should be preventing someone emotionally younger than 16 from being in a relationship let alone having sex, not enabling it.

A poster earlier summed it up: capacity to consent is task specific. My daughter was fully able to decide who she wanted to be with and what she wanted to do with them. She is also fully able to understand the implication of pregnancy (thankfully). She lacked the capacity to sort out the right type of contraception.

Jamillalliamilli Fri 11-Jan-13 09:36:36

This is why people should be nice to SWs, because when you work in this field these are the things you are awake at 3am thinking about.

Perhaps we could also consider being nice to families looking after people with LD’s too? We’ll be awake at 3am (actually it’s 1.30 and 4am here) for the rest of our lives, dealing with the repercussions of decisions made by SW’s now worrying about another client, moved on, or long left the field.

I’d like to remind people discussing this, that not only is there a young woman and an unborn child’s fate being decided here, but also the future of her mum, and sisters who will have little choice in coping and potentially into the next generation too, with whatever the end results of this pregnancy bring them all.

Decisions can be a life sentence for families, there is no indication of their views, they're just the carer's, the people who will be left dealing with it all, after the interested parties have moved on.

Families who care deeply are often left with all the responsibilities of other people’s decisions but none of the rights.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 11-Jan-13 03:11:17

BTW Chaz great post.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 11-Jan-13 03:08:25

There is a middle ground between Court and being left to make her own decisions. This is a quite common thing, for people with LDs to have people make capacity decisions. I have made them. This happens between mild and severe LDs. Someone could have a relatively mild LD but with other issues, autism for example, and relationships and sex are difficult to understand. Someone with a more severe LD could understand sex because they had a very open and motivated parent. That is why they have to be made for each case and decision.

HopAndSkip Fri 11-Jan-13 02:08:15

Hmm, it seems like it must be very severe LD to have gone to court rather than her being left to make her own decision though? I agree with OP that it raise's the question of the circumstances she got pregnant in. (As far as I'm aware normally doctor's wont try to legally force an abortion on an adult woman regardless of her health?)

At 18 weeks she's coped a fair way. Hopefully a few more weeks won't make much difference, and they can deliver early without too much harm to mum or baby. Having had a severely premature baby, I don't think abortions should be preformed this far on, never mind forced on a woman.

AmberLeaf Fri 11-Jan-13 00:19:34

icingontop I was so outraged that I missed the 'not'

sorry blush

I see this case as an example of where the system has worked. Doctors had, I assume, a legitimate medical concern about the health of a patient. Because of the patient's LD they were not clear whether or not she had capacity to understand the possible risk of her pregnancy. The matter was put before the court to determine whether or not she had capacity to decide to continue her pregnancy. The court found that she did.

The doctors were in a difficult position because they can't just act, especially as this isn't an emergency situation, but they can't ignore the fact that a patient might not understand that they are at risk.

MrsTerryPratchett Fri 11-Jan-13 00:05:56

I know a few bloody amazing LD nurses so she is in good company.

Moominsarescary Thu 10-Jan-13 23:41:59

Not just sw, my sister is a LD nurse and it keeps her awake at night,

Theicingontop Thu 10-Jan-13 23:28:04

Amberleaf, re-read what I said.

MrsTerryPratchett Thu 10-Jan-13 22:54:54

Yes bottle and worse. What if a young woman with LDs wants to date 'normal' boys (her words, not mine)? She doesn't want to go out with a boy from the day centre but a boy down the road. Well, a lot of the boys with no LDs who want to date a girl who has LDs want to because she is vulnerable to abuse; sexual; financial, you name it. She doesn't want to see it but her family is worried to death. She has capacity to consent. He is taking her money, taking her phone. Now, this could happen to a neuro-typical young woman. I would still be worried but not as worried IYSWIM.

Or the man who is low level bullied by his friends at work. They call him Spaz and similar. But, he likes work and them and he gets to go down the pub after work and to the footie with them. They call each other stupid, offensive names as well. Is it abuse, is it OK? Do you challenge or not?

This is why people should be nice to SWs, because when you work in this field these are the things you are awake at 3am thinking about.

mightycheeks Thu 10-Jan-13 22:29:05

You would not know that the majority of people with sickle cell disease even had sickle disease if you met them when they are well! They do have problems with long term organ damage e.g. kidney failure but it varies a lot person to person. It is an inherited condition, in the same way cystic fibrosis is. The most prominent symptom is pain when they get sickle shaped red blood cells sticking in the little blood vessels supplying their organs and bones. It is agonising. Anyway this is not what the thread is about - but sickle cell is something I know about so thought would share smile.

bottleofbeer Thu 10-Jan-13 22:01:31

Ah yeah of course, I suppose even if they are seriously delayed in every way their bodies aren't. God that must be such a difficult situation.

mightycheeks Thu 10-Jan-13 21:58:37

Just to highlight that having sickle cell disease does not, in itself, necessarily mean that a woman is unable to have a perfectly healthy pregnancy. This lady has severe sickle cell disease as shown by the fact she has had numerous strokes. Normally after a stroke patients are put on long term transfusion programmes to prevent further strokes by reducing the percentage of sickle cells in the blood. I would be interested to know when she had her strokes. I have known people who have had several strokes as children who have made excellent recoveries. It all sounds a bit odd to me.

MrsTerryPratchett Thu 10-Jan-13 21:36:17

bottleofbeer if only all people listened and thought as you do. It is true that the 'mental age' thing gets bandied around. I worked with a young man, 20s who had parents who insisted on telling people he had the mental age of I think 8. He got into a lot of issues with younger women because they were told this. Of course he had the hormones of a young man. Not a good mix.

It is very important to make capacity assessments and decisions based on individual things. You could find that someone has a lot of knowledge and insight in one area and not another. IQ is a terrible measure and so is looking at prior capacity assessments.

BearsLikeMarmalade Thu 10-Jan-13 20:18:16

bottleofbeer, it would be great if more people could reflect on these issues the way you have smile

bottleofbeer Thu 10-Jan-13 20:09:26

Thanks for the explanations, you learn something new every day. Although if I'd ever really given it proper thought it's quite obvious that one size doesn't, never has and never will fit all.

I'm going to hold my hand up to my level of ignorance on this; in my mind whenever I see him it's always in the back of my mind that quote "mental age of six" and because I didn't think too deeply about it beyond that I did wonder if it was ok for him to be drinking in a pub - to me it was like letting a six year old go drinking but obviously making allowances for the fact he's now actually 40. Horribly ignorant of me, I realise this now.

It's really so bleeding obvious to me now that LD can mean so many things, and yes, a person might be seriously delayed intellectually but not so emotionally. Socially he's obviously got LD but really, he's got loads of mates and he's well...fine. Bloody funny too!

I see it all rather differently now. Thanks smile

BearsLikeMarmalade Thu 10-Jan-13 19:56:13

Bottleofbeer - yes, you've hit the nail on the head, 'mental age of 6' would have been an incredibly over-simplistic and deeply unhelpful explanation. People with LD develop different abilities at different rates, and whilst thinking developmentally can be a useful way of understanding a particular issue for a person (e.g. level of receptive vocabulary), applying age brackets to people on a global basis is pretty much always unhelpful, and not supported by any standardised assessments. Yes, you always assume capacity. That is very clear in the legislation. No-one has to prove that they have capacity in order to be 'allowed' to do something. Assessments of capacity are only triggered if there are legitimate concerns that someone might lack capacity to make a specific decision.

Birdsgottafly's comment about emotional intelligence is spot on (loving your work on this thread by the way). I work with people with LD and very often see greater degrees of emotional intelligence in my client group compared to those without LD.

I think the reporting of the woman as in the "bottom 1%" in terms of intelligence doesn't necessarily help. Most people with LD would score around this level on cognitive tests because they are not hugely sensitive at this level of ability. In actual fact there is a massive range of abilities in different areas of understanding - hugely variable and person specific, ranging from mild levels of LD to severe/profound. Although this woman is reported as being 'severely impaired' in some of the media reports, I think it likely she has mild-moderate LD (technically IQ 50-70 not that IQ is hugely meaningful). I regularly assess people's intellectual ability and their capacity to make various decisions and there does not seem to be a clear correlation between scores on a cognitive test and whether someone has capacity to make a certain decision or not. This is why the Mental Capacity Act is such an important piece of legislation, it ended the assumption of incapacity based on presence of LD. The independent article has some good quotes from the judge on this.

LettyAshton Thu 10-Jan-13 19:26:51

I met a woman who was fostering a baby who was the child of two severely learning disabled people. Although it was that rarest of things, the "newborn, white, healthy" baby, not one person on the adoption register wanted it.

Presumably there are other babies like this, who will end up in the care system. Perhaps we should consider them.

McNewPants2013 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:21:32

I don't belive an abortion should ever be forced.

If it is down to medical concerns about the mother, what about other groups. Poor example but if a mother to be has cancer and is refusing treatment to save her unborn child should she be forced to abort because her life is in danger.

Pigsmummy Thu 10-Jan-13 19:14:28

There is a college, run like a village in the area that I am from, specifically for people with learning disabilities and mentally disabled, there is a birth control tablet included with every prescription because pregnancy was rife, sexual desire is a very basic human function, contraception isn't

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