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to think MN shouldn't support boots co-advertising newborn bottle sets and "follow on" milk

(902 Posts)
ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:30:00

when there's a national campaign on to promote BF?

Presumably this advert passes the letter of the law regarding the non-advertising/non-special offers on formula for new born's but it defies the spirit in every way possible.

AIBU to expect a little more social responsibility from MN?

ledkr Fri 11-Jan-13 16:25:46

Or even grin

ledkr Fri 11-Jan-13 16:25:11

<grabs pickles in a headlock and drags her off this thread>

Nice to see this thread is a bit more balanced than last night when quite frankly it became shocking.

Dh asked me about the thread as it was obvious it was emotive by my head shaking and eye rolling.
When I tried to explain he was truly shocked and couldn't believe women could be so bothered by it. The way he saw it if you fed and love it then hey ho if you didn't for whatever reason then up to the individual.

I don't think anyone disputes its best to breast feed but people who don't or can't feed don't need the guilt trip because although breast milk is beneficial ff isnt exactly poisonous and some of us simply have no choice.

Two of the 3 I breast fed now smoke and flaming drink so undid all my hard work anyway grin

PickledInAPearTree Fri 11-Jan-13 15:56:23

I can't see the good in arguing over points like "formula never hurt anyone" to be honest. Although presumably you would want to point out that there is an increased risk of gastroenteritis for eg which arguably can be classed as an increased risk is that what you mean?

tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 15:48:29

ICBINEG, I can understand the dilemma. Someone makes a generalised comment about ff or bf, and it is quite clearly wrong and not evidence-based, and should it be challenged?

I pick my battles, to be honest! I don't always challenge people - time, inclination for a fight smile, my judgment about whether the thread or the individual are open to new information, how preposterous the statement's unpredictable.

ICBINEG Fri 11-Jan-13 15:47:52

Cool. I was getting a little paranoid....

MorrisZapp Fri 11-Jan-13 15:40:11

Yes my post was aimed at Tiktok, and anybody who said that I was generalising that 'breastfeeding causes PND' when in fact it doesn't, or that 'breastfeeding cures PND' when in fact it doesn't.

But it can do both of the above. Tiktok you are kind and patient as always.

ICBINEG Fri 11-Jan-13 15:38:24


So in general would you recommend leaving comments like "FF never hurt anyone" and "it doesn't matter how you feed" unanswered?

You can only answer them on a statistics not individual basis?

ICBINEG Fri 11-Jan-13 15:36:27

Morris not sure if your last post was aimed at me or not, but if so I made the statement that statistics don't tell you about individuals like twice. In one post.

<realises this decreases the probability that your comments were aimed at me>

tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 14:11:27

Morris, good phrase, 'not a statistic but a person' smile

I am certain that when breastfeeding is not going well, it has a negative effect on women's mental and emotional well-being (note : not always PND, as it could contribute to an increase anxiety and stress, and/or depression).

I don't know of any research that distinguishes between 'any' breastfeeding and 'breastfeeding that makes the mother scared, worried, sleepless and rubbish' so my certainty is based solely on observation, and a bit of common sense smile

I've also been in touch with women where formula feeding seems to have even more negative effects - I counselled a woman with (what I now think might have been) OCD who could not relax with bottles as she was terrified of the milk and the bottles not being clean enough, or having the right proportion of water mixed in etc etc. Unforch, she had been told that her bf was contributing to her depression (if that's what it was) and she stopped doing it. And as for choosing a brand of formula, she was scared of getting that wrong, too.

This is why all individual women with individual difficulties and individual mental health profiles need individual, knowledgable help and support to make the right individual decision for them. As individuals smile

MorrisZapp Fri 11-Jan-13 13:43:49

I'm an intelligent woman and I have a lot of insight into my illness. Don't take my word for it - a consultant psychologist told me I was a pleasure to deal with for those two reasons!

BF didn't cause my illness on it's own. I have never said here that it did. But it was a huge contributing factor. The moment my mum said to me 'look, you've done great, but it's time to stop now. Give him a bottle' was a massive turning point for me. I couldn't give myself permission to FF, but when my mum said that a huge weight lifted from me and I realised that I could make things easier for my family and my loved ones would not judge me for it.

The main 3 factors in my recovery from PND are in order of importance: 1. Medication. This was an absolute godsend. 2. Packing in breastfeeding. The relief. Oh the relief. Like being let out of a very dark and scary prison. 3. Going back to work.

I believe you when you say that BF lowers the incidence of PND. I'm sure it does. And I know that some mothers with PND find that BF is a huge part of their recovery. But I'm not a statistic, I'm a person - MorrisZapp. Hello, pleased to meet you. I had brutal PND, partly caused by breastfeeding.

JenaiMorris Fri 11-Jan-13 13:27:04

Gosh, two deletions in one thread!

flower that must have been awful for you. It's dreadful that your MW didn't pick up on this before it reached that point. I'm not sure what needs to happen to stop these situations, but it certainly needs looking at.

giveitago Fri 11-Jan-13 13:17:37

Ledkr - with you all the way on your views.

I was sickened my local nct group on bf - I did want to but found it hard with my my very old and slack 30gg breasts so no, I was not free to pop to the park or coffee shop at any given time and pop my tits out when ds was hungry. Yes, it was a military operation to guess when ds was hungry so I could have my bed prepared as the only way not to smother him was to lay on my side and hold the breast and constantly monitor that I was not smothering him.Very tiring. I was given the message that I was failing ds. Then factor into this that mil descends at 6 weeks and that was the end of any breastfeeding. It dried up with the stress. A few weeks later when she's gone I started to lactate again but you know what - I couldn't be bothered to build it up all again and be almost confined to home. I'd gone to ff and it was really helpful to the have all the info on formula.

I think that in the UK we are very much lobbied on the benefits of bf and that's great for those of who can and want to and for us who don't have the opportunity or can't (for whatever reason) or who don't have the support a nice bit of information on ff is helpful.


ICBINEG Fri 11-Jan-13 12:34:03

look I wonder which genes get switched on by constant vomiting during pregnancy....

Moominsarescary Fri 11-Jan-13 12:31:47

They have no idea, they've booked to see me at 37+5, it just depends how what my cervix does now the stitch is out. It still has some length and I'm only 1cm dialated so could go to term

PickledInAPearTree Fri 11-Jan-13 12:21:44

How long do they think you have!

Moominsarescary Fri 11-Jan-13 12:03:28

Well stitch out and no baby here!

Poffleski Fri 11-Jan-13 11:31:00

My DD is 2 and to be honest I rarely think about bf/ff as its not relevant anymore. A dear friend is training to be a midwife and has been very much pushing her bf views on me so I'm a little sensitive to it. Hoping she'll mellow though.
Agree, listen to tiktok and sirboob, they speak sense (and are very helpful- thank you ladies!)

PickledInAPearTree Fri 11-Jan-13 11:19:48

Alright tiktok you have me there! grin

There are done lovely posters on here that are pro bf golden and some extreme views as there are in anything.

Listen to people like tiktok & sirboob and please don't pay any attention to some of the more extreme things.

I couldn't have read a thread like this a year ago without being upset but it does and will pass. Normally when your toddler starts eating mud in the garden!

MyGoldenNotebook Fri 11-Jan-13 11:09:07

Poffleski I couldn't sleep either. DH was concerned as I had promised him I would stop reading threads like this as I get so upset. I know what you mean about having a terrible time breastfeeding but then wanting it back. I get sucked in too. Is your baby still little like mine? DD is almost 7 months. sometimes I think I will feel better when she isn't a baby anymore, which is sad as she is such a wonderfully cute baby! So so sweet.

Tiktok thank you for taking the time to write a supportive post to me. I'm still battling but will hopefully be able to move on from this eventually. Interestingly, nobody in my family really breastfed and although all of my friends tried none of them managed for long. All thoughtful, concerned loving mothers. A couple are pregnant again and really hoping to BF successfully this time. I will do my best to support and encourage them.

LookBehindYou Fri 11-Jan-13 11:03:38

BF or FF, whatever. What makes your child healthy, tall, short, blue eyed etc is your great grandparents. Thank them for the genes they've passed down. We also switch on certain genes when pregnant. What we eat has impact on them. By the time they're born, if they're adequately nurtured, their biological path has been designated. Same for us. Some time ago I was involved in a study of breast milk. I was staggered at the properties it contains. However, the absolutely primary benefit is to the baby because the act of bf promotes attachment - an imperative if the child was not to be left alone on a mountain in the old days. Holding a baby close, having skin to skin, eye contact all do the same thing which can be achieved with ff. Some people have to ff, my sister was one of them. My spectacularly handsome accomplished at many things nephew (no bias) is doing well at Cambridge.

I actually didn't even notice the ad.

tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 10:51:14

Golden, you did not 'fail' and it is not your fault you are no longer breastfeeding.

For anyone living in any society, community, group or family, how we feed our babies goes way, way beyond an individual consumer choice or a physiological event.

It is a decision that is mediated by our feelings about our bodies, ourselves; what our mother did; what friends do; what we have read and seen; what our life experiences have been; our access to help and support with the method we use; our society's ideas about it; how we think of ourselves as mother; the internal ideas we have eg if you are a rebel and your friends bf, you might ff; if you are a rebel and your friends ff, you might bf)....any or all of these, in different measures.

Point is, very few people can make these decisions in a total vaccuum. Even if the decision seems to be wholly physical, there may be hidden other elements; even if it seems to be wholly social or cultural, there may be hidden physical elements.

Whatever. It is not a subject for self-blame or self-recrimination. Babies can be (and should be!) beautifully and lovingly mothered however they are fed - bf does not have to mean loving emotional development, any more than ff means emotional detachment.

ICBINEG Fri 11-Jan-13 10:42:32

Jenai I do and do not agree with you there.

The problem on these threads is that the facts exist but make no account of individual circumstance.

If people say "FF never harmed anyone" then people in possession of the facts feel compelled to point out that is has and does.

If someone said BF never harmed anyone that would be equally incorrect.

If people say "BF caused my PND" people with the facts feel compelled to point out that you cannot tell what caused your PND. The fact it cleared up when you stopped BF may or may not be a coincidence. They usually feel compelled to also give the fact that BFing is correlated with lower average rates of PND than FFing - again there is no causation there...just correlation. Fundamentally it would be a bad idea to make your feeding choice based on fear of PND....

I side track myself.

It is true that FF costs the NHS millions, it is true that it is associated with higher rates of all sorts of horrible things (including PND) but it is also incontrovertably true that FFing is the 100% best choice for many many woman for many many different reasons.

The problem is that what is true for the average person is not true for all individuals!

To be fair to the people on this thread accused of making horrible statements, they are mostly doing it in response to people making untrue sweeping statements.

Or in other words those saying FF does no harm must take at least some of the responsibility for statements of the harm it does do being made on the thread.

tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 10:42:26

Sorry, Pickled you didn't say 'literally'. You said the mere mention of formula had them shitting their pants and that you were not exaggerating.


tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 10:40:46

Pickled I totally accept you had rubbish help and a nervous reaction when you asked about formula in hospital - and that's poor maternity care. There's no excuse for it.

What I said was an unhelpful exaggeration was your claim that nurses were 'literally shitting their pants' at the idea of formula....I don't believe this was literally true, or that you would know smile

tiktok Fri 11-Jan-13 10:34:22

Morris you asked about meds (specifically ADs) and bf: very few meds can be actively tested on bf women. However, the studies that are done assess for safety in one or more ways:

i) the pharmacological make-up of the drug is assessed for how readily it can travel through the blood to the milk - the molecular structure of some is that it does not get into the milk

ii) what might happen to the drug if it reaches the milk and then to the baby's tum - if stomach acids destroy the active ingredient it should be safe

iii) what proportion of the drug gets into the milk, if any - if it's tiny, it will be safer than if it's large

iv)how vulnerable the baby is - tiny babies = more vulnerable than toddlers

v)how long the drug stays active before 'dying' - if it's half an hour, say, it's easy for the mother to time her doses

vi) looking at what happens to milk, and to babies, where mothers have taken the drug because they were prescribed it (ADs are relatively commonly prescribed for bf mothers, so there are several studies on these)

That's how the safety of ADs and bf can be assessed.

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