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to feel that the Tories like foreign children more than British ones?

(106 Posts)
SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 09:55:10

They pay child benefit to Polish children who have never even been to Britain. They support children in the third world by maintaining the full value of the overseas aid budget, whilst at the same time saying they can't afford to raise income support, working tax credits or child tax credits in line with inflation. They will raise support for overseas children in line with inflation but not support for British children. British students have seen a 300% increase in their university tuition fees but overseas students have had a much smaller rise (in line with inflation). It seems, to me, that David Cameron and Ian Duncan Smith have it in for British children and young people or am I being unreasonable?

Hechan Thu 10-Jan-13 11:32:35

Re child benefit, YABU if you think this is a one-sided arrangement. If you went to work/pay your taxes in Poland leaving your partner and kids in the UK, you would be entitled to whatever Polish parents get, even if your kids had never even been to Poland. I live in Ireland with my kids and get my child benefit from the Netherlands. Them's the rules. It's not a soft-touch Britain issue at all, despite what the DM would have us believe.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:35:49


dreamingbohemian Thu 10-Jan-13 11:37:58

Scrazy -- US students can use government loans (capped at a certain amount) to pay for university whether at home or abroad. Unfortunately, due to the exchange rate, it only covers about half the cost of attending uni in the UK, on top of which foreign students are limited in how many hours they can work, they can't go part-time, etc. The terms for repaying the loans are also much worse than the UK system.

In many German states, uni is free, so even if you can't get UK loans you may be better off going that route.

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 11:38:14

Some stats about Overseas students (this isn't very clear here as MN doesn't format it, but if you click on the link its a lot more readable). It makes for interesting reading, especially if you are talking about funding.

EU students (non-UK domicile) in HE
FT PT Total
Postgraduate research 10,300 3,105 13,405
Postgraduate taught 24,685 7,000 31,685
Postgraduate other 1,900 2,805 4,705
First degree 66,450 3,210 69,770
Other undergraduate 2,800 7,750 10,550
Total non-UK EU 106,245 23,870 130,115

Non-EU students in HE
FT PT Total
Postgraduate research 25,505 3,505 29,010
Postgraduate taught 113,100 14,970 128,070
Postgraduate other 2,330 4,480 6,810
First degree 108,755 5,915 114,670
Other undergraduate 9,110 10,440 19,550
Total non-EU 258,800 39,3310 298,110

Top 10 non-EU senders 2010-11 2009-10
China (PRC) 67,325 56,990
India 39,090 38,500
Nigeria 17,585 16,680
United States of America 15,555 15,060
Malaysia 13,900 14,060
Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region) 10,440 9,945
Saudi Arabia 10,270 8,340
Pakistan 10,185 9,815
Thailand 5,945 5,505
Canada 5,905 5,575

Top 10 EU senders 2010-11 2009-10
Republic of Ireland 16,855 16,595
Germany 16,265 15,425
France 13,325 13,780
Greece 11,630 11,785
Cyprus 11,320 11,160
Poland 7,330 8,415
Italy 7,100 6,650
Spain 5,795 5,720
Romania 4,625 3,190
Bulgaria 4,615 3,395

Scrazy Thu 10-Jan-13 11:39:15

Thanks Pessary. I thought it was something like this. I know it's not the same but a friend of mine is from IOM and they don't pay a penny to study in England. She left uni with £150 debt to the bank.

Mumsyblouse Thu 10-Jan-13 11:40:13

Scrazy, nearly all our non-EU students are self-funded, i.e. their parents stump up nigh on £50,000 plus over 3 years for them to be educated in the UK (fees plus living expenses). There are a few on scholarships funded by their governments, but they are a small minority and the money is still placed into our economy.

EU, I am not so sure now, we are not deluged by fully funded by their government EU students, and now the £9k fees have come in, I cannot imagine there are many governments paying their students that to come here.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:41:18

If we were doing the university education thing again with our kids I would strongly consider the University of Maastricht.

It would be considerably cheaper and has the benefit of learning about Dutch culture.

MakeItALarge Thu 10-Jan-13 11:41:29

When I started my msc in 2011 I paid £3700, a North American student doing the exact same course paid £11,000.

Foreign students do not always get it cheaper.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:42:14

Scrazy, ah the IOM, we are considering moving there. Love the place.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 11:42:51

But this is a problem of lack of consistency throughout the UK due to devolution, not that 'foreign children are liked better'. If Wales and Scotland had the same fees as us, or even better, if we had the same as them, this wouldn't be an issue.

Scrazy Thu 10-Jan-13 11:43:23

Mine has no choice except to study in England and take the full loans. It's OK saying study in Germany but they still need money to live on and student finance doesn't cover it.

Mumsyblouse Thu 10-Jan-13 11:49:28

That's right, you have to find living costs, but so do most EU and non-EU students, they pay the same rent, food etc as your children. That's also why there is a strong tradition on the continent of students attending their local university and living at home, to keep living costs down.

That's why international students are usually from very wealthy families, and why the same is becoming true of English students living away from home at uni, only the wealthy can afford it.

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 11:58:08

On the other hand though, you'll perhaps get a better quality of education than elsewhere in the EU. I don't think there's a simple solution here.

Fees have to reflect what it costs to run the universities. What I do question more than anything is how much the universities themselves set the fees at - when they reviewed the upper limit on fees, the report thought that most university would set fees a lot lower. But they haven't. Why is that?

Its almost as if you've effectively now got a cartel set by the universities. What you might find, is that in two to three years time, if places aren't being filled that some universities are forced to drop fees to match supply and demand better.

Of course it doesn't help the first wave of students going through the process...

dreamingbohemian Thu 10-Jan-13 12:01:46

Scrazy, it still might be worth looking into -- there are scholarships offered to foreign students by German foundations, some student loans, etc.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:07:29

I'm just going to answer SindyW's OP.

The HMRC say if you live in a European Economic Area and work in the UK or claim a National Insurance based benefit. So if you were to move to France and you claimed a state pension but are the guardian of young children you can still claim child benefit.

Polish people who live here can claim the benefit, whether their children live here or not. But if they are already claiming a child benefit in Poland then they won't be eligible. Often if the parents are working in the UK then they cannot claim child benefit from their home country, just as if you went to work in France you could not claim from the UK. So whilst you were in France you may be able to claim their benefits for the children you have back home.

Overseas aid is very necessary. Why not concern yourself with the billions that could be saved if tax avoidance loopholes were closed? TopShop, Starbucks, Amazon, Google, the four main banks, BP, Shell and many more all have offshore based companies into which they share out their profits so that they don't have to pay any UK tax. That is something worth getting angry about, not giving money to fund medicine and food supplies for war torn and developing nations.

Welsh and Scottish students do not pay fees. Is that fair? Overseas students do pay hefty fees to study here and the Universities have actually been accused of turning away British students in place of foreign students from Asia who pay through the nose to study in the UK.

Cameron and Clegg have it in for poor people. Those of us who work in service industries that keep the country ticking over. Teachers, the police, refuse collectors, shop assistants, construction workers, nurses, etc. Those are the people chosen by the Tories to pay more than their fair share so that the banks can get away with not paying corporate tax, so that multi-national companies will see the UK as an attractive prospect for non-taxable business, so that the country can ease itself out of the debt caused by those very banks.

Your anger is misplaced.

One question for you: Why the focus on Polish people?

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:36:29

I'd also like to point out that the Daily Mail is owned by Lord Rothermere, a close pal of David Cameron who isn't above the odd tax avoidance scheme himself.

Don't you see SandyW? The government would far rather you blame immigrants, foreigners and those on welfare than their own policies. At times of recession it's easy to look at others and feel resentful and the media, Daily Mail especially, capitalise on this with ludicrous stories of how foreigners are coming over here for free NHS treatment, how people on benefits are sponging off the state, etc. Look a little closer and you'll see that the politicians themselves regularly fiddle their expenses, avoid all the tax they can and spend like there's no tomorrow whilst telling us all what we have to cut back.

By getting you to blame your Polish neighbours they are diverting you away from the real culprits.

You have to bear in mind that whatever EU nationals can do here, we can do in their country too. And we do. Thousands sail off to France and Spain each year and set up little colonies of their own. They claim that country's benefits, they take up jobs and some of them don't even bother to learn the local language. Sound familiar?

Don't fall for it. Take a closer look around you instead. And invest in a decent newspaper.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:36:35

Sorry those in the public service industries are now simply experiencing what those in the private sector have been experiencing for a long time.

Sooooo utterly fed up with this consistent view that only the public sector a having a tough time,you're not everybody in the middle is as the Tories only look after the rich because they are,pensioners because they need their votes and those at the very bottom because they have to.

Those in the middle are consistently taking the pain,having their kids shat on and funding mot of the cuts.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:37:56

And if people want to question that all power to them.

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:56 Susan George on the causes of world poverty.

The WTO, the federal bank and the IMF have enslaved third world countries to huge levels of debt. They dictate what these countries can produce and how it can be traded. Western nations do not profit from this but western states fund foreign aid from our taxes. Who profits? well the very same people and corporations that avoid paying tax in the west. (in UK, USA) When we talk about paying aid to war torn countries we should look closely into why those nations are torn apart. Sadam Hussein was sponsored by the west but he refused to privatise industries and in particular oil in Iraq. We are told we are waging war to democratise but in fact what is really meant is that we wage war to neo-liberalise their economy. Not because it is beneficial to us or our state but because of corporate interests in cheap, unregulated labour, few if any environmental controls to exploit natural resources. So if a dictator receives both aid and he is prepared to accept corporate exploitation and huge interest repayments to the banks (IMF and FED) then he gets to stay in power.....

How many times do you pay for that 1 cup of coffee at Costa? we subsidise Costa through tax avoidance, we subsidise their workers wages through tax cerdits and HB and we pay aid to developing countries, we also pay for wars through our taxes that benefit them and also we are shovelling money into the hands of the bankers through the IMF. We wage war with our tax money so they can get at cheaper labour in third world countries. All the time our nation state is being bankrupted.

If only Mr Clegg and Scameron acted in the interests of Britian and not in their own class interests. They would realise that right wing neo-lib policy is bankrupting the UK, has been for the past 30 years.

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 12:47:45

<<<Those in the middle are consistently taking the pain,having their kids shat on and funding mot of the cuts>>>

that's because you are working class darling. And I might add, no one is actually "funding" the cuts. That's a contradiction.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:01

Polka, my dh works in construction and I am self employed. I sympathise but having worked in the public sector myself and knowing quite a lot of nurses I can honestly say that they are often pushed to working harder and harder, accepting more hours and more changes for very little benefit.

Working in the public sector used to be a cushy deal but not anymore. I don't envy them at all now. At least in the private sector the goalposts are not constantly changing. I felt less pressure in the private sector.

We are ALL being shat on. We shouldn't let the Tory Party divide us as they currently are doing. Everyone from the pensioners to the middle class, middle income family are being shat on from a great height and it's got nothing to do with Polish people.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:53

I've worked in the public sector and have seen how much harder it is first hand in the private sector having a Dp working in it and family members who have worked in both.

But you're right,we should all stick together and not hurl insults when people question unfairness.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 13:00:47


seeker Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:38

"Having a very poor understanding about something doesn't make a person thick."

No, but pontification about it without gaining a better understanding does!

realcoalfire Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:44

Maybe you ask the thousands of Afghan and Iraqi children and their families, who have been maimed killed and orphaned whether the British Government likes foreign children?

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