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To believe that breaking up this family is unjustified

(52 Posts)
TheBitchInTheHouse Thu 06-Dec-12 13:54:04

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 13-Jan-13 11:00:56

Hazleweatherfieldgirldetective. The campaigners are hearing of many couples/families who have been refused even when they meet all the criteria under the new rules, and people under the old rules who are being refused for silly reasons, forcing them to appeal and have many months of waiting and insecurity. People who have been following immigration news for years have noticed an exponential rise in such cases.

In any case, this horrible thing has already happened to this family, and it's happening to many families. Coulda woulda shoulda advice is not very helpful at this point in time, I'm afraid. The rules need to be scrapped.


I don't know if anyone is still watching this thread, but there is a new website and blog where most information regarding the rules and campaigns against them is collated in one space.

Please do let me know if you have any ideas on where I can post this to raise awareness and reach people who may be affected.

hazleweatherfieldgirldetective Sun 30-Dec-12 10:50:00

I have to admit, I was shocked when I came back to work after a year on maternity and saw the rule changes. But I still think, with decent representations submitted along with an FLR(O) application, they would have been successful. I've never had a refusal in these circumstances and, on the face of it, can't see any reason why this case would have been different.

MulledVodkaAndXmasMincePies Sun 30-Dec-12 10:34:35

Holy mother of. If they had brought these changes in just a few months sooner I would have been sent packing with 2 small children (one a new born) and left behind a husband to ill to work, let alone earn that kind if money.

How very very lucky we were!

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Sat 29-Dec-12 09:27:15

Hi, I appreciate that I'm raising a zombie thread, but just wanted to explain to the poster who asked why the couple didn't get decent legal reps to bang in an Article 8 application.

It's not so simple anymore - when the Immigration Rules were changed over the summer, Article 8 applications were also tightened up and they are now pretty tough too.

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 16:27:12

natation, I don't like adding smilies to show that my message shouldn't be read as being an angry one, but due to the amiguity of the net here is one. smile Are you working for UKBA, if so, would you be willing to sign the petition anonymously and add a comment, or to submit evidence to the APPG inquiry?

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 15:41:58

natation. The family's aware of that option, but for their own reasons, it's not viable, but thanks for suggesting it.

I think it's lunacy that British citizens face the option of moving to another eu country for a period of time, or just staying in the spouse's country forever, with no possibility to come home with their partner easily, not even in an emergency. Both forms of exile, even if the first one is short term. Especially as, as you say, EU nationals living in Britain are not subject to the same strict requirements.

Natation, may I ask what work you do/did?

The extension to 5 years is not great when you have to live with uncertainty for 5 years and being less desirable to employers etc, but I think it's a change that most people could live with, even if it's not ideal.

However, for me the 2.5 plus 2.5, having to show that you earn 18.600 for at least six months at each point and spend thousands applying for visas and paying for solicitors at each point to me looks just like a money making spree at our expense, and a way of designing a system that will catch majority of british people out at some point in their lives - no matter how genuine or hardworking.

I think it would be better to give a spouse visa for five years and see if they were still together at the end of it, and see if they were still supporting themselves at the end of it but not be so prescriptive how.

It also doesn't allow for circumstance to be taken into account. I don't think sudden unemployment should be a reason to wreck a family and separate children from parents.

Nor do I think it's fair that my husband pays tax and works very hard but can't claim jobseekers if he's made unemployed through no fault of his own.

I can live with it, though, I'm so relieved and thankful we're at least together and I don't want their bloody money anyway. I've never claimed anything other than CB. My solicitor told me I could possibly claim some tax credits while on mat leave but I just can't be arsed. I am too proud to take their money, they can keep it.

I'm interested to know.. how do you know if a marriage is sham or not? It's very rare for me to get the opportunity to talk to someone on the "other side" so to speak, and I've always wondered. I don't know what evidence you can submit to prove your feelings for another person. Lie detector? If that were even possible, then no one would ever have a bad relationship would they? I know how to prove my income, and how to prove i've been in touch with my husband or living under the same roof, but how do people prove their actual feelings, especially as all you have to go on is a load of paperwork, maybe photos, and perhaps a meeting for an hour or two with the couple...?

Have you ever come across a couple who you felt to be genuine but had to refuse for a different reason eg financial, and if so, how does it feel to be on the other side of that?

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sun 09-Dec-12 15:38:38

Thank you OP,

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 15:08:47

InNeedofBrandyButter I am so sorry for you and your family. Words fail me. I wonder how many others have ended up this way. Makes me so angry..

natation Sun 09-Dec-12 10:55:49

The only (possibly short term) solution is for the family to move to another EU country. As someone who has come across many sham marriages, interviewed 1000s of failed asylum seekers, it does make me angry when the rules are changed like this, I fully agree that any British citizen who brings a "controllable" spouse to the UK must be able to support them without recourse to public funds, in the same way as other EU nationals must do when they bring their "controllable" spouses and children. I also agree that the time limit of LLE needed to be lengthened. The financial minimum is just too much though, the other EU nationals do not have this financial limit, just to prove support without public funds. It makes me ashamed.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sun 09-Dec-12 10:43:32

OP We're not together anymore, 5 years apart was to much for me (I was only 19 when I had my son). Sad for my son though, until he's of an age where he can go on a plane by himself (and 5 is to young to go and stay with a stranger which his dad is) he's never going to see him.

AntsMarching Sun 09-Dec-12 10:28:11

I went through the system a few years ago. I can tell you that at that time (2006), it was most definitely about what you earned. I was fortunate that my husband and I both had high earning jobs and a good savings.

I was at the embassy applying for a fiancée visa and did not have a notarised copy of my (now) DH's passport. The officer started to lecture me on this and how important it was, even though none of the paperwork stated it needed to be notarised. He was still lecturing when he got to the paperwork on our finances. The lecture stopped and I was given the visa the same day.

I called DH to complain that if we'd not been so fortunate in our finances then I feel certain he would have turned my application down.

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 10:12:22


Yes please do join the groups and signpost. I'm trying to reach as many affectd people as possible. If you know any other social media parenting groups etc where I should be posting let me know. Open to any ideas.

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 10:10:12


My Gawsh, you're brave! I wouldn't dare to do it without a lawyer, even if my case is straightforward. but it's good to know some people did it alone and still won.

TheBitchInTheHouse Sun 09-Dec-12 10:07:20


That is awful. I don't know how these stories get ignored by the national press while the anti immigration hatred is spewed out daily.

Please join the facebook groups and get some support, because the more people we have fighting together the more able we will be to stop families from being broken up. There are some lovely people on there and there's a lot of useful information. I've learned so much and it's great to have new friends who understand what we're going through.

NameGotLostInCyberspace Sat 08-Dec-12 22:12:05

By the way, TheBitch, we have never used a lawyer for any application and we are by no means, legally fluent.
We actually appealed an initial refusal (on the grounds that our marriage was fake) by ourselve and won! Just wanted to share as I know it is pricey and not always necessary. Good luck with your application smile

NameGotLostInCyberspace Sat 08-Dec-12 22:07:51

The changes include:

introducing a new minimum income threshold of £18,600 for sponsoring the settlement in the UK of a spouse or partner, or fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner of non-European Economic Area (EEA) nationality, with a higher threshold for any children also sponsored; £22,400 for one child and an additional £2,400 for each further child;

Haven't read this on the thread ABOUT CHILDREN, so thought I would throw that in!!
I had one child at the time of application of 2yr spouse visa, I could not work as no childcare and family circumstance (unofficial caring). DH was earning around 150 pounds in his home country (with some savings) so we would probably still be apart.
Yes I will be joining groups and signposting people who this is relevant to. This issue needs to be highlighted.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sat 08-Dec-12 20:29:38

My sons hasn't seen his dad since he was 4 months old sad he's 5 now.

He got deported after his visa ran out sad and it's only now his 4 years are up he can apply again. He spent months and months in a detention centre like a criminal, He was working, a good dad, payed his taxes and contributed to society but probably will never see his dc again.

TheBitchInTheHouse Sat 08-Dec-12 20:22:06

TheBitchInTheHouse Sat 08-Dec-12 20:21:54

Here is a link to the inquiry - probably the best way to fight these unjust rules.

TheBitchInTheHouse Fri 07-Dec-12 21:41:49

Hello JaquelineHyonChristmasspirit

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I told the gentleman who made the video about the lovely comments on the thread and the calls for him and his wife to join but he's being cautious now after having a very unpleasant experience on a site with a name very similar to this one ;) I had assumed all social media was the same and that would always happen to a certain extent. That's always been my experience so far. However, this thread and the amazing amount of compassion and support is a very welcome change from what I usually see.

Whenever one of the campaigners gets a story in the press (local papers mainly - nationals are not bothered) then there are always nasty comments posted on the online articles.

I am really happy that you are joining the group. Yes, please do signpost your friend to join. It may be worth letting her know about the APPG inquiry. I'll find the link and post again. The more evidence they get from people affected, the more chance there is of getting the rules changed.

We're really grateful for any support and signposting to people who are affected. There must be thousands out there by now and I hope we can reach as many as possible.

TheBitchInTheHouse Fri 07-Dec-12 21:28:58


Thanks for your sympathy and I'm so glad that your hubby was able to apply under the old rules and has ILR. My hubby and I are putting in at the beginning of next month and the papers are with the solicitor. Even though ours is a straightforward case and there shouldn't be any hassle, I have heard of people who have been separated because of UKBA's incompetence, so I am still worried. If it's hard enough with a straightforward case, I really cannot imagine how those families get through it. It's a real testimony to true love and those couples are so strong.

I really hope we can get these rules changed, as that's the only way justice will be done. I'd be so grateful if you would sign and share the petition and if you know anyone who needs help tell them about the group. You're welcome to join as a supporter too of course.

JaquelineHyOnChristmasSpirit Fri 07-Dec-12 19:25:57


Thank you for starting this thread and for the sympathy for my own situation.

It is unfortunately one of those issues that you sometimes fear speaking out about in public or new company because sadly some people really do believe everything they read in the papers about those bloody foreigners! So it is nice to know that there are people out there who understand and have compassion for the situation.

I have popped a request in for each of the facebook groups and will signpost someone else I know who is in a similar situation if that is ok?

NameGotLostInCyberspace Fri 07-Dec-12 13:34:45

Appalling! We too would have been affected by this. How fair is it to penalise people who happen to fall in love from different countries??
I understand the need for strict rules on this but think the current rules, having been through the process, are strict enough.

How the hell does someone prove they will earn acertain amount when it would be practically impossible to gain employment in the UK from another country??
As it stands, DH is hoping to apply for Citizenship soon as currently has ILR. After lots of headaches, worry and heartache we can finally 'relax'. If we were applying next year initially, God only knows what would have happened sad

TheBitchInTheHouse Fri 07-Dec-12 10:02:55

Thanks Fenix. Their skilled working visas and student visa system are similarly shambolic, but that's a whole new thread, and although I'm aware of the problems, I'm not an expert. They cheated a large number of international students by promising them a two year work visa after finishing their studies, and then reneged on that promise by sending them all home three months after their studies finished.

TheBitchInTheHouse Fri 07-Dec-12 09:56:17

Mrs Terry Pratchett. That is awful. I am so sorry you had to go through that. I wonder by what criteria they go by to make assumptions like that.

In addition to silly requirements, there is also a "secret blacklist" of countries where they can subject families to extra scrutiny. Blatant discrimination. Guess how countries get on to that blacklist? By the number of refusals that UKBA issue to ppl from that country the previous three months. How countries get off the blacklist is a mystery to me. Also, the UKBA refuse to publish it knowing they can't afford to piss off some of the countries on it. So when you apply, you have no idea if you are going to be subject to this discrimination.

If they want to deter people from falling in love with foreigners - which is clearly their aim, why don't they publish the goddam list and be done with it? They expect people to make personal life choices based on their stupid rules so why not.

Rant far far far from over :S

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