Tory haters: shouldn't you start reining this in?

[Abitwobblynow]

Because the golden geese who have to pay for what you believe are entitlements and who you despise so much, are flying away:

"Almost half of all Britons who emigrate each year are professionals and company managers, potentially threatening the country?s supply of highly skilled workers, research for the Home Office found.
The attractions of a better lifestyle and climate, as well as career opportunities, meant a ?large and increasing? number of executives, scientists, academics and doctors have chosen to leave Britain in the last 20 years, the report said.
Business leaders blamed high rates of income tax for the ?disturbing? rises in the number of professionals leaving Britain for countries such as Australia, American and Canada. Around 149,000 British citizens emigrated last year, and 4.7 million now live overseas."

What do you think? Has the class resentment poison gone just a bit too far, and isn't it just a bit outdated? And was Labour right to stoke this narrative up?

[Longtalljosie]

Do you think Labour did stoke the narrative you've outlined up? The first quote that sprung to mind when I read your OP was Peter Mandelson saying he was relaxed about people getting filthy rich. What examples to the contrary do you have?

[Abitwobblynow]

Yes, I absolutely do. I think it is a hangover firstly from the socialist backlash to the old class system, and from the old outdated 1950s collective trades union model. You know, the real culprit, the one that really did trash our manufacturing base.

Peter Mandelson might have been saying that, but the other lot weren't. McMoron uttered the words 'fairness' and 'justice' enough times to make my eyes swivel. He was so ideologised, he geniunely believed that the solution to poverty was to give poor people money. There was no confrontation at all of life habits that result in poverty (what a nasty Tory concept). He absolutely entitled people into thinking that they deserved stuff from nasty people.

[oldnewmummy]

I've been living abroad since 1997. Tax rates did not factor in my decision, and tax in Australia (where I am now) is higher/the same as the UK.

Are you blaming Labour for the better weather overseas?

I could happily live in the UK again, but I'm happy here for the moment.

[CombustionEngine]

So the report said it was due to better lifestyle, climate and career opportunities, but business leaders are claiming it's due to taxes. Have they read the report or do they just want more profit?!

And how does "class resentment" fit in?!

[AlicatDXB]

I've been expat for 7 years. We didn't leave because of tax. We left for opportunity, challenge, excitement and a better work/life balance.

In fact you could argue that the reason we're expat is because I grew up with a female prime minister who, although her politics appalled me, showed me that I could do what I wanted as long as I had the drive to go and get it. I've worked hard to get where I am and part of the equation career wise was that time overseas would help.

However, its easier for business leaders to blame the tax regime than think about how they adapt to retain driven people who want the best for their families.

[TuttoRhino]

If we immigrate it will be for quality of life reasons which mainly have to do with the cost of houses in this country. We'd move to a country with higher taxes.

[complexnumber]

Isn't it normally good form to cite your sources?

Anyway, I found the article in the Telegraph (no suprises there) and it just seems fundementally flawed for 'Business leaders' (no names then) to state that there is a causal link between taxation and emigration. There could be any number of reasons why someone would want to move out of the UK.

The world has changed a heck of a lot over the last 20 years.

[Dawndonna]

Hmm, this is exactly the reason why I don't vote Tory. Lack of empirical evidence, misrepresentation of evidence and a failure to grow up!

[FunBagFreddie]

My parents moved abroad, taxes didn't come into it. However, a more laidback lifestyle and better weather did. My dad also didn't like the creeping invasion of privacy by the state, he is a staunch Libertarian.

[RubyGates]

We would consider moving overseas, but it's not so much the unfairness of high taxes as the eventual use of them. Scandanavian countries seem to have higher taxes but a much better use of them.

Here, the government take "another penny in the pound" for this that and the other, slowly eroding our confidence in them as nothing ever seems to improve. It's the utter incompetence of whatever flavour of administration that slowly wears you down.

There are all sorts of other issues which are slowly creeping in, (invasion of privacy, governmental pressure to conform to all sorts of private issues, a completely impenetrable tax system) which need sorting out.

[AThingInYourLife]

I love that you just accept the (obviously biased) word of "business leaders" that high taxes are to blame :o

Also funny is that you come in benefit bashing and then accuse the imaginary people you are ranting about of class warfare.

Too funny :o

[SuePurblybilt]

But why else would the majority of people move? I can't believe that this is news. People who move abroad are likely to do so for work and lifestyle reasons shock. And those who can afford to do so/can get visas are well paid professionals - further shock.

And of course it's increasing from 20 odd years ago - different working rules, cheaper air fares, housing booms and bust.

I'm not sure it's as simple as the professional classes doing a Phil Collins and fucking off to Monaco to escape the tax.


Course, if you'd like to cite the source you're quoting from, it'd be easier to have a proper look at the figures.

[WreckOfTheBeautiful]

I'm an academic scientist, and if I choose to work abroad - which is a strong possibility in the next few years - it would be because of the increasingly pitiful state of basic science funding in this country, which is only getting worse under short-sighted Tory austerity measures. My personal tax contribution wouldn't enter into the equation. The analysis you've "cited" seems shoddy, to put it politely.

[AngelsWithSilverWings]

Not sure what class resentment has to do with being a Tory hater.

I hate the Tories.

My DH is a high earning banker who pays a lot of tax. I also paid a lot of tax in the 20 years I spent working in the banking industry before I became a SAHM.

Why should we not feel entitled to use the NHS or send the kids to a state school? Why should we not expect to receive some assistance if my DH lost his job?

We do not feel the need to leave the country to escape taxation because we feel it's a moral duty to pay our share.

My DH does have friends who have decided to move abroad but this came about because they were offered relocations by their employers and they decided to go to enjoy the experience. They did not actively seek to leave the country because of high taxation.

[redexpat]

I have a masters. The only reason I moved is because I met a nice man. He had a house and a job, I didn't. So it was easier for me to relocate.

We pay about the same tax here, it's colder, I still dont have a job but am now doing a degree which is paid for, and I have a student grant. Childcare is better here, but I didn't think about that when I moved.

So overall I think what you've said doesn't apply to me in the slightest.

[RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief]

I think it's more about greater opportunity elsewhere than taxes in the UK. I live in HK, and certainly there's a steady flow of bankers, lawyers and "captains of industry" from the UK to here, but that's more about the fact that there's more happening here because Hk is surrounded by developing markets. Taxes are lower (15%) but that's counterbalanced by much higher rents (2-3x central London) so most people arent much better off.

It's also quite logical that it's mainly skilled Brits who leave the UK because if you dont have any skills, it's quite hard to emigrate as nowhere you'd want to go will let you in.

[tilder]

Between dh and I we work in the NHS and in science. Both roles being limited under Tory government.

Agree with angels - what has salary got to do with being a Tory hater?

[lubeybooby]

So op you think tories are leaving because people hate them

[Brycie]

Tax is a great reason for living abroad. People say it's not why they moved abroad but you can be pretty sure it's a big part of what keeps them there. People move abroad because a job opp comes up, or they fancy a change - once abroad tax rates very often feature in the decision to stay. Unless you live somewhere like Belgium which is greedier than the UK.

[Morloth]

We go where the work/money is.

So many of our friends have left the UK in the last 3 years I can well believe it will start having an effect.

A lot of the big companies are moving out/downsizing their London offices at the moment. It is a mess for the UK.

For us, it was nothing to do with tax, just the fact that the work left and we went with it.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

The tax rates aren't all that different really (those figures are % of GDP rather than income tax of course)
USA a bit lower tax, but then you have your healthcare costs on top which can be crippling.

Anecdotally, no-one I know who has emigrated has done so because of tax rates.

Furthermore, as a professional family, I have never seen/felt anything of this class poison of which you speak. I have seen resentment of huge companies and mega-earning individuals who dodge their tax bills, and of executives whose earnings have rocketed while the rest of us have pay freezes.

And how I feel about Tories has nothing to do with 'entitlements', nor do I 'despise' the rich. Please don't tell me what I believe.

[Brycie]

Tax rates can be different if you are an expat. You might only pay tax when you're in the country - so that if you travel for a third of the year (not that unusual for exap businessmen and women) combined with holidays that's a lot less tax to pay.

People don't emigrate because of tax rates, but tax rates feature in their decision not to come back.

[Rollmops]

Absolutely agree, OP, however, you'll get hysterical bashing from resident red leftist Labour army and will end up enemy of the People etc etc ad nauseam.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

Not sure how it's 'hysterical' to point out the OP is factually inaccurate and phrased in inflammatory language?

[Brycie]

I don't think your average person knows that much about tax rates abroad. I don't think they know that much about tax rates in the UK, and just go along with going along. But once abroad, their eyes are opened and they think hey I really like this why would I go back to 40-45 pc.