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To start a thread about the new uc and how it affects entitlement to tax credit.

(201 Posts)
morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 22:23:35

Just as the title suggests.

How many people actually know how this will affect their personal circumstances?
Millions of workers will be affected and so many people will lose out.
This is not welfare cuts for the unemployed its anybody not working for 35 hours earning the minimum wage.

CagneyNLacey Tue 09-Oct-12 23:21:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SchrodingersMew Tue 09-Oct-12 23:22:39

Does anyone know how this will affect ESA and those unable to work?

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:23:15

WRT to the self-employed ...

Apologies for the lengthy post, but I'm going to quote from the link I posted earlier, as he says it better than I can!

"According to the recently published draft regulations: “claimants who declare that they have income from self-employment, or who are self-employed with no income, will be invited to a “Gateway” interview.”

This appears to be some form of Stalinist Dragon’s Den, whereby people will be forced to prove to the DWP that their business, or their trade is: “done with the intention of increasing the income received to the level we could expect the claimant to make if working full time”

Claimants will be expected to provide reams of evidence at these interviews which will no doubt be carried out by people with so much entrepreneurial know-how that they’ve ended up working in the Jobcentre.

Should the claimant pass this government test, then they will be granted a year’s start up period, during which they will be largely left alone. After that they will be subject to the ‘Minimum Income Floor’. This means that self-employed people will be expected to earn a certain amount a week, or lose eligibility for benefits or self-employed status. The Government are not telling us exactly what that Minimum Income Floor will be in the consultation documents, however it has previously been suggested that people will be expected to earn at least the minimum wage for any self-employed activity.

Under the new proposals self-employed people will be expected to work at least 18 hours a week. It is unclear whether those in self-employment working at this level will be expected to abandon self-employment to take up full time work, or workfare, should the DWP deem it appropriate. Those working part time are now to be forced to continually look for full time work, attend interviews at the drop of a hat and hand in their notice immediately should they be offered even a temporary full time job.

If these requirements are not inflicted on self employed workers, then for many people simply under reporting their hours will mean they are able to qualify for the full Universal Credit award. If this all sounds confusing that’s because it is. Once again a key piece of legislation, set to go before Parliament in Autumn, has not been thought through or adequately explained.

It is likely that the Minimum Income Floor will mean that self-employed people are expected to earn the equivalent of the minimum wage for 35 hours a week or face a cut in benefits. As Housing Benefits are now to be lumped in with Universal Credit, this may mean homelessness for some.

Another aspect of the new regime will punish people who invest in tools, stock or other business expenses in order to increase earnings. Self employed people will now be required to report all income and business expenditure on a monthly basis as opposed to annually as under the present system. Expenses will not be carried over to the next month. This will mean if someone spends a couple of grand on stock this will only be reflected in their earnings for that month. The new system will make it impossible for self-employed people to invest on any significant level to improve their earnings.

It will not just be businesses that have large outlays, such as small shops or tradespeople, that will be affected by the monthly reporting. A freelance journalist who spends a month writing a piece in anticipation of it being sold will be penalised for not earning minimum wage during that period. Self employed people will be punished for injecting both time and cash into their business. The harder you work, the less you get.

And these are the lucky ones who have passed their DWP Dragon’s Den.

People who fail to impress the Government with their self-employment plans will still be permitted to earn money from self-employment, and will face the same monthly requirement to report any earnings. They will also however be given a Claimant Commitment, meaning they will not be treated as self-employed. This will mean that there will be a requirement to attend Mandatory Work Activity or attend pointless courses and workshops with Welfare to Work companies like fraud ridden A4e any time the DWP sees fit.

This will destroy people’s ability to take on small amounts of work on a casual basis. Should someone be offered a few days work on a self-employed basis they will not be in a position to guarantee they can turn up. They could be sent to work in a charity shop with no pay that week instead. Far from the stated aim of making all work pay, short periods of self-employed work will be a commitment that claimants can no longer make under the new regime. The DWP will decide how you spend your time and if you fail to comply you could face sanctions for up to three years."

morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 23:29:53


I believe so, if you want to keep your benefit. It really stinks that you try your best and require a little support andyou end up better off not working which I think will be the case for many part time workers.

Leithlurker Tue 09-Oct-12 23:33:42

Aufaniae, lovely name btw what does it mean where is it from?

Just one point further to your post, otherwise you are pretty much spot on. Like every body claiming out of work benefits, income support, job seekers allowance etc. The failure to comply, and here we are talking about the job centre plus, or any agency that is acting on behalf of the DWP, such as A4E with an instruction can result in a benefit sanction. 3 sanctions and you lose all benefit for up to a year. This happens now to people who are signing on but refuse to take jobs either because the job is part time, does not allow them to care for children or adults, they keep being turned down for jobs and are deemed to be not trying hard enough, they have no money for bus fares so cannot get in to jobcentre plus office, in fact a large range of reasons can end up getting you sanctioned.

Now though as others have said, a sancvtion under the same rules can and will be applied to someone who does not earn enough, or work more hours. someone will be only too happy to tell the wring people that they are just as work shy as those receiving money for not working. We the disabled, the carers, the people who cannot get jobs because there are none, told you, we have been telling you for the past 4 years that the working poor will be the next targets. We were right, welcome to our world.

Oh and just the other day I heard a report from a reliable source that they are already starting to target carers, asking them to develop back to work plans for when they no longer care fort someone. Pretty tough to do if you spent 30 odd years looking after a child of your own with learning difficulties, but still they will be sanctioned for not complying.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:34:40

The Tories keep on going on about how they want to make it better off to work.

The thing is, it is actually better off to work already! They're lying when they encourage the idea it's not.

Here's an article which breaks down the figures to show exactly how you are better off if you work.

Under the new UC rules, it will indeed be better for many part time workers to claim benefits. So the Tories' UC plans are doing the opposite of what they claim it will.

Whitecherry Tue 09-Oct-12 23:39:54

Does this affect lone parents? Job entree today was adamant it's 16 hours I need to be doing

morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 23:41:34

Ha Ha

"we're all in this together"

Except the very rich. DCand his cronies

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:44:16

Thanks LeithLurker, for the info and the compliment!

The Aufaniae were a group of Celtic mother goddesses. I was TTC a while ago, and I thought it was apt. (Were I the superstitious type, I'd say it brought me luck as I'm pregnant now smile )

CagneyNLacey Tue 09-Oct-12 23:47:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 23:48:40


Apparentely it affects everyone. I heard somebody on another thread discussing the adverse affects on single parents. Nobody is immune.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:48:49

Another change is that if you have more than £16K in savings or assets such as property you don't live in, you won't be eligible for UC at all. (Currently you can still get WTC with savings).

A mumsnetter on another thread was explaining that she'd lose entitlement as she owns a share in a property she doesn't live in. The share is not saleable. And she lives in rented accommodation herself. Thankfully it wasn't going to affect her too badly, but it's an example of how something which might sound fair on paper will affect people who do need the help.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:50:51

Whitecherry this hasn't come in yet.

They're trailing it in the NW first, then they'll roll it out to new claimants in October IIRC, then move everyone over sometime between then and 2017 supposedly.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 23:53:20

I'm not sure but I think childcare is changing too. I haven't looked in depth as not applicable to me.

My theory is that the gov are trying to force pt working mothers out of work. It seems like this as osbourne wants to scrap flexi working. After all Conservative gov are for traditional family values with one parent working, the other at home. It would not surprise me in the slightest.

Leithlurker Tue 09-Oct-12 23:54:44

Celtic mothers, thats exactly who we need. Far more robust and powerful than the Norman bastards back to subjugate the poor.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:55:09

I think you might be right with that theory sad

It's all so fucking backward. angry

morethanpotatoprints Tue 09-Oct-12 23:56:27

I live in one of the first areas to be trialed and believe me the local benefit office are working on it now. My friend is working on it constantly with over time. This is happening.

CagneyNLacey Tue 09-Oct-12 23:57:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 23:58:00

grin Leithlurker

PeppermintLatte Tue 09-Oct-12 23:58:07

i'm off to bed depressed. these tory twats are making life almost impossible with these stupid changes. surely there has to be another way?

Leithlurker Tue 09-Oct-12 23:59:47

I am less sure about that being the reason, I am more convinced they are determined never again to allow working people to hope that one day they can have fairness and equality. From which level of despaire they become more compliant and much easier to control. The odd flash of trouble can always, as now be put down to one group or another being deviant, or that they need stronger discipline. All talk of people having just cause to be unhappy will be extinguished as in order to think you must be able to have the time and the energy.

aufaniae Wed 10-Oct-12 00:06:00

Anyone planning on going to the march on October 20th?

I haven't been on a protest in years.

But it's time to get out there I think. I doubt it'll change much (yet) but I reckon it's good to get out there and make contact with other people and see what they're saying. And to maybe start building some kind of useful protest.

My biggest fear is that they'll get in again next time. And we've got ages to go till an election sad

merrymouse Wed 10-Oct-12 00:06:19

I wonder how this will affect people on zero hours contracts? I understand they have no guarantee of work in a particular week but have to be available for work?

morethanpotatoprints Wed 10-Oct-12 00:08:51

Anybody with savings had better put it into trust funds for their kids then.Our savings were for pension as dh always being self employed. So many pension funds couldn't be relied upon so we saved. Theres not a huge amount, but looks like our kids will have healthy accounts.

Leithlurker Wed 10-Oct-12 00:11:17

Merry, they are absolutely screwed, tbh zero hour contracts are a huge con any way, so if it sees the back of them I will not be sad about that. I suspect though bastard employers will think up another wheeze to replace them.

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