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to not want school to teach my kids how to speak in the way the teachers wants?

(710 Posts)
bellabreeze Tue 02-Oct-12 20:41:00

Having irish accents the teacher of some of my kids has told me they would do little speech classes so they speak different.. its not the accent but its things like saying 'ting' not 'thing' and dat not that and stuff like that really.. I think.. I don't think it is important enough to waste time doing? But maybe I am wrong?

Turniphead1 Sat 06-Oct-12 12:20:15

Fromesme - but a Ka is a car? wink
Only messing. I am Irish although I don't say dat dere etc.

I think in schools here (England) the teachers will encourage children to be able to say their "th"s too. My middle child says "free" instead of "three" and my youngest says "wery" instead of "very". I do try and get them to try and say it correctly. It's not a big deal.

Yes - the English not pronoucing their "r's can be annoying. For ages my children (born and brought up in England) would be talking about going to Granny's house in "Eye-land". It was soon drummed in that there is a great big "r" in the word....

garlicbutty Sat 06-Oct-12 00:07:21

Esme, I bet you can even roll your Rs! Despite a lifetime of speaking latin languages, I've never been able to do it. Am aware of sounding like a sort of guttural Wooster to native speakers. I say "cwassant" blush

I've got a fantastic range of 'throat' sounds to make up for it (guttural, see?) I should have been born a Klingon.

tarantula Sat 06-Oct-12 00:00:18

And their 'th's too smile as I had a long and rather convoluted conversation with my FIL about how he could take 4 people to a concert with the 'free' tickets I was giving him. How can I possibly get 'free' tickets for four people? Cos I'm Irish that's why grin

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 23:48:02

Ok Turniphead1 if that's the case, then can English people start pronouncing their "r"s then? Because once, someone's mum told me to go and sit in her "caa" and I spent ages looking for a Ka.

Because there is an "r" there at the end of the word, you see. So can you all please start talking properly, because the rest of the world can't actually understand you.

Turniphead1 Fri 05-Oct-12 21:34:23

Example of why it might be good to learn to say "that" and so on on Strictly tonight. Nicky Byrne caused his poor partner think he was talking about a "turd". Rather than third.

perfectstorm Fri 05-Oct-12 20:13:44

You know, I remember a storm of controversy when Caron Keating joined Blue Peter when I was a kid, on the grounds that she Didn't Talk Properly, and it was Setting a Bad Example. Only RP should be demonstrated as acceptable to young minds, apparently, and the BBC was Dumbing Down to suggest otherwise.

You'd have hoped things would have moved on somewhat in 25 years.

Himalaya Fri 05-Oct-12 19:05:09


"I don't think that "racism" is the right term, Himalaya."

Well Irish and Traveller are both classed as ethnic groups for the census I think, and in lots of equal ops monitoring, so I think it applies.

"Personally, no, I think the opposite: it would be discrimination for schools and teachers not to teach standard English pronunciation (why do some pupils not merit being given access to standard English and others do?)"

But schools don't teach standard English pronounciation (if there ever was such a thing) they don't teach pronunciation at all (otherwise there wouldnt be regional accents). My son's teacher in the home
counties is from Lancashire. They've all learnt how to mimic her quite well, but it's not on the curriculum.

Even for non UK accents - There have been kids in his class from India, Trinidad, Japan, France... No one suggests special pronunciation classes for them to correct their accent. As long as they can speak and write with standard grammar and spelling, and be understood in their accent no body sees it as a problem.

LRDtheFeministDragon Fri 05-Oct-12 18:11:58

For the record - I am not a linguist, and I wouldn't call myself a grown-up academic. I've studied linguistics as part of my degrees, and I do work with academic linguists. But the main focus of my degrees, as I said upthread (but it is a very long thread!) are in English Lit.

I do find my work fascinating, and I absolutely do think children find learning about sounds fascinating, and complicated, and exciting. smile

perfectstorm Fri 05-Oct-12 17:55:49

Bonsoir, do you actually know any academics? Because all the ones I do - and I do mean all - find their work and their field fascinating. It excites them. A linguist referring to "exciting new sounds" in the context of a child's learning a language is therefore unsurprising. If you think that's odd, you should have listened to the computer scientist saying how "impossibly sexy" some new development or other in his field was. I doubt he was planning to get down and dirty with a microchip; he just found the research enthralling.

What is the point you're trying to make? That LRD can't find the process of a language being learned exciting, and say as much? That she can't anticipate a child finding it so? What? Given the number of times you've raised it, you plainly think you're landing a killer blow of some sort. I just can't see what relevance it has at all to the conversation everyone else is having, that's all.

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 17:42:16

And the point was, LRD? Still waiting...

LRDtheFeministDragon Fri 05-Oct-12 16:49:42

'Exciting' means fun, interesting, stimulating.

'New' is the opposite of old; something novel, something you've not experienced yet.

'sounds' are things we hear.

I am trying to get down to your level, you see.

I'm not sure I can simplify any more. smile

Curtsey Fri 05-Oct-12 16:47:14

Do, perfectstorm. It's not an easy ride but you'll emerge feeling ...changed, somehow! DFW=smart.

perfectstorm Fri 05-Oct-12 16:43:40

Curtsy, thanks for the precis. Really interesting, and I'll dig out and read that essay.

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 16:40:18

Because, as you can see from this thread, Bonsoir , there is no commonly accepted standard.

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 16:37:17

Why is an institution required in order to have a commonly accepted standard? It isn't. All sorts of things, in all walks of life, have standards that are not institutionalised.

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 16:34:05

I'm not sure I follow your thinking, Bonsoir .

Languages such as German or French which have a body to protect language as it stands might have a claim to some sort of attempt at standardisation. I would argue that it doesn't quite work, and that it tends to ghettoise some dialects and groups.

English has no body which protects it. As thus, it constantly evolves. Even organisations like the BBC, which you may expect to use "standard" English doesn't do so. Which would lead directly to the argument that there is no such thing.

Curtsey Fri 05-Oct-12 16:33:38

That isn't what the prescriptive/descriptive war is about either.

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 16:33:02

I was asking for you to elucidate the meaning of "exciting new sounds" and you still haven't done so, LRD.

When I google "exciting new sounds" I get lots of links to songs from Southern Arizona. I don't think that's what you mean but maybe you could confirm?

LRDtheFeministDragon Fri 05-Oct-12 16:32:16


I think it might take a wee bit more than reading the thread to 'understand' your 'position'. wink

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 16:30:30

You can read the thread again if you don't understand my position. Which is not one that supports the idea that "language in a constant state of flux" and a "standard language" are mutually exclusive concepts. On the contrary, they can co-exist very harmoniously!

LRDtheFeministDragon Fri 05-Oct-12 16:29:45

The key word is 'learning', bonsoir. Rather ironically.

The one you forgot to read, or quote.

Dear, dear ... it does help to read all the nice words, not just the ones you can sound out for yourself.

Curtsey Fri 05-Oct-12 16:28:28

I think it has become very much about that argument.

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 16:26:54

What do you think the thread is about then, Bonsoir ? Because Curtsey gave a pretty good description as far as I can see.

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 16:25:57

Curtsey - I don't agree that this thread is about that argument (though some posters are intent on making it so!).

Bonsoir Fri 05-Oct-12 16:25:09

"Different languages and accents, bonsoir"

"But we are not talking about learning a new language, bonsoir.

We're talking about different accents."

You really are confused, LRD, aren't you? wink

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