To be really fucked off with the "make bradford british" q+a session?

[northcountrygirl]

I live in a town close to Bradford, that has the same levels of segregation. My children go to nusery/school in a village next to an "asian area" with about a quarter of the children being muslim, so all 3 of my children have a lot of muslim friends. My questions were completely ignored.

I totally agree that we need to integrate the communities more. My questions were (roughly - can't remember how I phrased it):

1. I live in a town close by and totally agree with Sabbiyah's comment on the need for cohesion. My children have a lot of muslim friends (my son's friends are nearly all muslim). The problem I find is that whilst the children integrate well at school there is absolutely NO integration outside of school. Party invitations and invitations to tea after school are declined (or more often than not completely ignored). Why do you think this is? Is it because of worries over Halal food not being served? Or something more deep seated?
   

1. (along the same lines) In my childrens' school the children themselves integrate very well up to about year 4. From year 5 onwards you can see the divide if you pass the school at playtimes. My own son was told by (some) of the white boys that they would only play with him if he fell out with his muslim friends. I feel that as the children start socialising out of school, the parents are not allowing the two cultures to mix. How do we, as parents, enable the children to socialise outside school?
   

I really feel the answers to these questions are important (to me at least). Last year all my sons friends were muslim (in year 5). He was getting upset as his sister was always having friends over for tea and sleepovers and also getting invited back, whilst he was constantly on his own. In the end I reluctantly had to tell him that in was unlikely his muslim friends would ever be coming for tea and maybe he should start playing with some of the non muslim children. Which he did.

NB - not being racist by referring to children as "white" or "muslim". The school they are at is bicultural rather than multicultural.

[Rhubarbgarden]

Good questions. I went to school in the outskirts of Bradford in the late seventies/eighties. At infant/junior school my small circle of close friends included an Asian girl. She was always invited to our parties and for tea etc but never came. I vividly remember feeling sad and confused by it, and one day I even cycled to her house with another friend to ask her mum why she wasn't allowed to come to brownies with us. Her mum just shook her head and wouldn't give us a reason. We gradually drifted apart.

It makes me sad to hear the same thing is happening 30 odd years later.

[northcountrygirl]

Ah you're my age then Rhubarb...

It is sad I know. The children themselves always say they want to come and get quite excited about the invitations. My son is now 11 and is starting to drift away from his asian friends IMO becuase of this - he's of an age where he's wanting to start having a social life and becoming closer to the people he sees out of school.

My youngest daughter is only 4 and hasn't really noticed it yet, but it's still the same. And I would really, really like to change this.

[wineandroses]

I've encountered something similar - one child in my DD's class (year 2), i think she is Sikh, attends very few parties and no play dates. Her parents never reply to party invites, they ignore calls and texts too. At DD's last party (a trip which included her entire class), no response to invite, nor texts, as usual. Not only is this incredibly rude but the poor child is missing out on so many opportunities to spend time with her friends, I feel really sorry for her. Clearly her parents don't want her to mix with classmates outside school, and yet when you meet them face to face they are very keen to chat etc. so odd.

[northcountrygirl]

Clearly questions that no-one on here is comfortable discussing either...

We do need a way forward though. The alternative is divided communities. I know London (or so I've heard) is more integrated, but up here in the North we have lots and lots of divided towns. Our children are making friends, but because of us parents, by the time they reach secondary, they are as divided as the generation before them.

[nailak]

Yanbu all my questions were ignored 2 in an hour they only answered about ten questions. Very frustrating.

[TheFarSide]

I live in London and we invited all our neighbours in for pre-Christmas drinks, specifying that non-alcoholic drinks would be included, and the only ones who didn't come were the Muslim family next door. In all other ways, we are friendly with each other. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I'd love to hear from some Muslim people on here how they feel about accepting invitations to non-Muslim events. I know some Muslim people don't want to be in the same room as alcohol, but I also know others are not so strict.

[northcountrygirl]

wineandroses - same here. The parents seem really nice (and so are the kids), just don't know what I'm doing wrong really.

I help out (well not really help - more like a hindrance really) at my daughters pre-school sometimes and the kids are absolutely brilliant. They are 3 and 4 and just take people as they find them - they don't notice race, I don't think at that age - and they all just get on so well.

What's happening along the way to change this view in them?

[northcountrygirl]

what did you ask nailak?

[georgethecat]

Was a great documentry though, really enjoyed it.

I have no idea how to resolve the difficulties you have raised, such a shame because children are so accepting.

[troisgarcons]

Yes, London is more intergrated - remember Islam is religion, and therefore there are many nationalities and cultures that practice Islam - A West Africa Muslim is not going to hold the same cultural views as perhaps an Iraqui Mulsim. Anymore than a CofE Christian is going to hodl the views of a Southern Baptist America.

People become segregated where there is little demographic movement and 'ghettos' are allowed to survive.


Our children are making friends, but because of us parents, by the time they reach secondary, they are as divided as the generation before them.

That is because of culture, not neessarily religion - although religious bias will come into play. TIm assuming you live in a predominatly bangladeshi or pakistani area? There will be a cultural play on arranged marriages, maybe not as arranged as previous generations, but some cultures do disprove of marrying out.

With the best will in the world where a culture holds chasity as a virtue - they arent going to want their girls mixing with outsiders who dont hold those views They wont want the possible corruption of morals. Ditto, some British girls dont dress chastely and would lead the boys astray.

disclaimer loving chastely!

People also have family traditions - and marrying outside may lose those traditions or water them down.

it's a terriboy complex area fraught with sensibilities and sterotypes.

[jinsei]

I can't speak for anyone else, but where I live, the Muslim children come to parties and go on playdates just like everyone else. There is no issue with integration inside or outside school. It makes me really sad to know that it isn't like this everywhere.

[Needingsomeadvice]

I can't answer your questions for sure but think that a lot of Muslim children have quite a big mosque school commitment after school so often even little children in my class have been at mosque, home, dinner and bed. Could that be the answer? I do agree with you though - our school staffroom contains a wide mix of people and I have noticed it is often the same 5-6 Muslim staff (unfortunately also all female) who never come to any of the work parties. We dealt with it to some extent by having more parties after school and actually in school which helped.

[nailak]

I asked about why there were no non Asian Muslims

Sabbiyah said in show that the way she dressed was part of her cultural heritage, so what about Muslims who cover when it is not in their cultural traditions to do so. And if she covered for culture or religion.

Why Mohammed would be offended by the thought of his daughter marrying a white man.

In one of the replies sabbiyah said if her daughter wanted to marry a white man she wouldn't force her personal beliefs on her daughter, so does that mean her personal belief or preference is asians don't marry white people, and why?

Also I asked if the realisation that others didn't percieve her to be British due to her dress made her re evaluate anything, or change the way she thinks.

I think that was it.

[TheFarSide]

trois - I would have said divisions are more about religion than culture. I'm thinking about how Afro Caribbean cultures have integrated (to some extent) because they and indigenous Brits share Christian values (even if most of us aren't particularly religious) thus intermarrying is less problematic than if it were between a Muslim and non-Muslim person.

Having said that, religion and culture are very closely intertwined.

[nailak]

You lot do realise a lot of Muslims don't actually celebrate birthdays, or do it on a very small scale and don't want their kids to make birthdays in to a big thing?

Also Muslim women may not be comfortable in mixed gathering were alcohol is being served.

[TheFarSide]

jinsei - that's good to hear - where do you live?

I live in East London and perceive very little cultural/racial tension but there is definitely a certain level of non-integration.

[northcountrygirl]

Yes - troisgarcons it is a predominantly pakistani area. I believe that arranged marriages are still quite prevalent as (can't remember the exact name but) the majority come from a particular area. Begins with "G" i think. I know my son has told me that his friends say they are all brothers. They're not, of course, but that is how they see themselves so I guess that can make it hard to accept "new people".

I understand what you're saying but my daughters are 4 and 11 so very chaste! And it's mainly my son who has pakistani friends and he doesn't even recognise girls as anything other than an annoying distraction. Or do you think they don't want their sons around me? I'm divorced and remarried. Could it be that do you think? I think my kids probably do talk about "going to their Dads" at school, so I would imagine they would know this.

It can't be that for my daughter's pre-school though as she's only 4 and I've managed to stay married to her Dad

Seriously though, how do we change this? Or do we just accept that we can't and continue to live separately?

[TheFarSide]

I guess there is nothing wrong with living separately as long as it's peaceful and there is mutual respect.

[nailak]

The far side, there are many different groups of Muslims in London, Pakistani, Bengali, somalians, Arab, kenyan etc, but you will rarely see them inter marry, a Punjabi Pakistani Muslim wouldn't even marry a Punjabi Indian Muslim, a somali of a certain tribe wouldn't marry a somali of a different tribe. Nationalism has become a disease amongst Muslim communities. Our generation in the west are starting to change this. Our parents and grandparents will have less influence on our kids marriages then previously, and even Muslims who married same tribe caste or whatever to please parents won't neccessarily expect their own kids to do so.

This is why I asked question about marrying a white man.

[northcountrygirl]

needingsomeadvice - it could be that yes. I know from my son they do go to mosque but hadn't realised it was every night.

[TheFarSide]

Although I do find it hard to respect the chauvinistic aspects of the Muslim culture - it feels like some Muslim men are where white Brits were in the 1950s.

The Mohamed who walked out of the programme was pretty appalling in his attitudes.

[troisgarcons]

TheFarSide I've worked all over the world with just about every dynamic of culture and religion. It's one of those things you cannot put your finger on.

EG - I've worked with a dirt poor isolated French colony where colour means nothing - no bias or segregation (v small colony, so black and white have intermingled for years and are now all cafe au lait) but French is the overtone of the culture - yet in France its self - well its really quite shockingly racist - yes they are - they loath their African colonial (algerians, moroccans) on their home territory.

Race and religion and culture - it's such a minefield.

You can educate and educate and educate but changes are often so minute, such tiny steps, that you would think it would take a millenia for anything to change.

[TheFarSide]

Yes nailak you are right - it's not just about religion.

[nailak]

North what do you mean by arranged marriage?

Some Muslims are just ignorant. I say that as a Muslim. You being divorced etc shouldn't matter. Play dates with the 4 year old you can all get together and go to park and get to know each other, even if they are worried about halal food amd sweets etc in your home.