to DRAG the DCs out of bed at 4.00am tomorrow morning?

[BlessYouToo]

It is probably a bit horrid but I am at the end of my tether.

I have DSs aged 9 and 10 and they will not bloody go to sleep. I have been tearing my hair out now for nigh on 4 years!! Normal routine is bath at around 7.30, snack and a glass of milk, faff about for ages then bed (after shouting at them to go 10 million times) at around 8.30. Then the fun begins.

I will hear them walking around, jumping around, having full on conversations that turn into shouting at each other after being told numerous times to GO TO SLEEP, one or the other will then come down to tell on the other one/tell us important stuff that they forgot to tell us etc. I do not expect them to go straight to sleep but do not expect to hear them until 11.30pm!! They do not have a TV in their room (that went long ago, only books).

Then at 7.00am when they are supposed to get up, they don't want to so cue laying around without getting dressed/washed/whatever they are supposed to do, terrible attitudes and arguments all round. I know damn well it is affecting their school work and their attitudes in general.

I am so sick of it and we have tried everything -separate rooms (makes no difference) staggered bedtimes (which do not work as the one that's supposed to be asleep won't be and they will then start again), bribes, threats of being locked in the car to sleep etc etc. They do out of school activities and are generally busy.

It has occurred to me as a last resort, to get them up so early that they are knackered all day and so will then therefore want to sleep at a reasonable time and I will gradually bring the wakeup time forward to around 6-6.30 when I usually get up anyway. They are still awake now so will get no more than 5 hours sleep tonight.

DH thinks it will be cruel, is it??

[theoldtrout01876]

Nope, Id do it

[MogandMe]

Why not

[StealthPolarBear]

No idea sorry I have similar but not as bad and much younger children. If you're going to do it maybe wait untold Saturday?

[soonbeforty]

YABU, you'll be knackered and so will they. Just tell them and then punish them. What do they like doing? Take it off them for an evening. Take them for a walk after dinner instead and wear them out. Or swimming, kids always sleep after swimming. Why on earth are you letting them behave like this? You need to be stricter. Getting up at 4am is ridiculous!

[Esta3GG]

Are they overtired? Are they over-stimulated?
You say they do lots of stuff after school - maybe they need time to relax more and wind down.

[auntiepicklebottom2]

perhaps cut out the bath in the evening and do it in the morning

i know when ever i have a bath it wakes me up

[OldGreyWassailTest]

Start taking away privileges i.e. tv, football (if they do it) etc. etc. Do a Supernanny and stick to it. They will never learn unless it affects them directly.

[MissMerrynder]

Noooooooooo! Don't punish yourself!

You know how they do stuff at the weekends they like? Let them sleep in, and they'll miss it. Stuff in the evenings? You can't take them because you're too tired as they won't go to sleep etc. etc.

Hopefully they'll get the message.

[Hardgoing]

How long were they in separate rooms? I would divide and conquer in this situation, it may be that one of the finds it harder to wind down/go to sleep til late, then keeps the other one awake and they all miss their natural slot to sleep.

Sleeping in together is a priviledge, and I would stop that, put them in separate rooms, choose a lateish bedtime or at least lights out (say 9pm) and leave them to it.

Everytime one of them comes out of their room apart from the toilet, they lose something. I'm sure losing the right to go to a party, or playstation time, or whatever their favourite thing is will concentrate their minds enormously.

Plus, very tired children can't attend activities, can they? If mine don't go to sleep by a reasonable time, I don't let them go to events the next day. They always do though.

You can't make them fall asleep, but you can separate them and make them stay in their rooms. Then they are at least getting the opportunity to sleep which is currently denied them. It may be less than you wish, though, I have a 7/8 year old who falls asleep about 10pm and this is fine for her.

[squeakytoy]

I know my mothers response to this would have been a slapped arse after the first warning was ignored. It would have worked.

There would have been no faffing about, and no million times of shouting.

[AgentZigzag]

8.30 is a bit early for a 9 and 10 YO I would have thought, even on a school night, and it probably isn't being tired that's affecting their attitudes if my nearly 11 YOs attitude is anything to go on

I don't think it's cruel to get them up at 4, but I would probably go down the route of giving them housework jobs to do for every time slot they're still banging about at, two birds one stone

Although you'll then have to hassle them to do the fucking jobs

[HandMini]

I can't think of anything worse than having to get up and get them up at 4am, then what are you going to DO with them for 5 hours before school starts? They'll end up slumped asleep on the sofa. I'd just lay down the law re bedtime again, make some threats about withholding treats/toys/puddings/games if they don't get their acts together and set the alarm for 6.30am.

[MissMerrynder]

Squeaky My mum would have given me a good smack as well! Oh, the memories...

I like Agents idea about the jobs- an extra one for every time you're aware of their presence after 9.

[DooinMeCleanin]

You have my children?

Actually mine have just gone quiet. Just. I'm not getting up at 4am. Dd2 probably will. That girl seems to need no more than 4 hours sleep. I gave up a while ago. I figure she will either grow out of it or grow up to be very organised, what with having all that extra time on her hands, when the normal people are sleeping.

[tigerlillyd02]

Do they have a light in their rooms? I assume most rooms do. My neices, at 4 and 6 were terrible for going to sleep too. They'd still be bouncing off the walls gone midnight. It all stopped once the light was removed from the room. Now they don't get out of bed at all.

[AgentZigzag]

I let DD read by the landing light, which I can then turn off at the bottom of the stairs at whatever time I can be arsed to get up at I decide.

If she's up to anything it'll be in the dark, so not much fun to be had there

[PastGrace]

I would say try it....having said that, when I couldn't sleep at school (stress around UCAS etc) I took myself early morning swimming at 6:30am (and wasn't sleeping until 1 or 2) convinced I'd tire myself out - I kept it up for a fortnight before it worked. There might not be instant results, and it does sound a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

But in your position I think I'd do it.

[muffinflop]

Yes do it...It's December in the morning and you can get them to put up the tree

On a serious note, it may take more than one 4am wake up call to retrain their sleep patterns. If you're prepared for that then I'd do it

[lljkk]

Separate rooms.
Silence & Lights out in their rooms, remove lightbulbs if necessary.
You hover outside doors to enforce.
Hard to jump around much if you can't see what you're doing.
I do think 8:30 is too early for many that age, would be for mine. 9-9:30pm more realistic.

[HooverTheHamaBeads]

Ah squeaky your post really made me laugh.

Slapped arses...good times.

[Hardgoing]

I wouldn't get up at 4 am, as they are already tired and this hasn't driven them to change their behaviour. All you will get is a full-blown power struggle at 4 am. If you can't get them up and co-operative at 7, how will this be different?

It would be much more effective to be firmer in the evenings, after a time you set. It could be lights out at 9, then losing priviledges if they come out/make noises, or it could be read quietly til they fall asleep. You can control the evenings and I think it's easier to do that personally.

I would also say that having tried to shift my daughter's sleeping patterns, they are pretty resistant. I have now accepted she falls asleep at 10pm and don't get stressed by it. As long as she is in her room and quiet by 8.30, it's up to her.

[BlessYouToo]

Have tried taking away activities, treats. They don't care.

We can not have separate rooms long term as we have a teenage DD and only a 3 bed house. She went in with one of them for a while with the other taking her room. She was not impressed but we hoped it would get them out of the cycle and we could then move them back but it did not work as they would just be running in and out of each others rooms. She needs her own space and privacy so we could not keep it up. We tried putting one in our bed until we went to bed so they would be separate until they fell asleep and they were still up and down and shouting to each other.

DH and I have even sat at the top of the stairs for hours to make sure they don't get out of bed but are bloody fed up of it. They only do 3 activities so not too much. It is DS2 who is the worse culprit, DS1 would probably sleep earlier if not for him. IMO they need at least 9/10 hours a night,so bed at 8.30 with an aim for sleep at 9-9.30 is not asking too much.

I in fact just slapped DS2's arse (don't worry, not too hard, he just gave me a look!) as he ran up the stairs after I caught him in the act in the kitchen nicking biscuits at 11.00pm. The buggers can creep downstairs and raid the cupboards without me hearing them so they can be quiet when they want.

Ho hum, I will perhaps try 5.00am tomorrow, I can go back to bed when they are at school! No point trying it at the weekend because they will probably just lay around the house all day. We really have tried everything short of drugging them! They went on a 2 hr bike ride today. The housework is a good idea.

[BlessYouToo]

We removed their lightbulb ages ago and have confiscated smuggled torches too!!

[Hardgoing]

To be honest, if they are out of bed nicking biscuits at 11pm, this is more of a discipline issue than a tiredness one. Really, there must be some sanction that would apply- no biscuits for a week, no going to one of those three activities, no going to a much wanted party. Every child has something they like doing or have to have, you simply haven't discovered it yet.

It sounds very chaotic at night and they are clearly not worried by any consequences you dish out. That has to change.

I still don't think a 5 am start will solve this one, sorry.

[countessbabycham]

Perhaps they are messing about more to get a response? I put mine to bed and pretty much leave them to it.They settle to sleep when they're ready and if they're tired the next day that's their look out.If they really fool around I go in and tell them firmly that there will be no more warnings but if they can't go to sleep so they're fit for school,they won't go to (so-and-so)activity.And mean it.