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to write to the Attorney General about a lenient sentence for Twin M's parents?

(24 Posts)
abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 10:24:37

Twin M has 3 siblings. They were all treated well, yet she was tortured and left to die at home. Her parents have been given 5 years each, which will reduce to 2.5 years in jail, with a 5 year licence on probation or tagged.

The mother was abused as a child and it is very likely that there is an abusive relationship between the parents - both of them deny the charge. The father said it was punishment from his god.

If anyone has the time to write an email to the Attorney General, this is the only way that this baby, brutally tortured and murdered, will get justice. It is likely that no other family members will make a complaint.

Please see the link, it has details of who to write to.

I believe these two should get an indefinite sentence in the same way that Baby P's abusers did.

Andrewofgg Thu 13-Oct-11 10:44:14

The Attorney General is more likely to be swayed by prosecuting counsel who knows the entire history and was at the trial than by anyone writing in on the back of stories in the press. But write if you want to.

soandsosmummy Thu 13-Oct-11 11:04:26

I suspect there will be a lot of circumstances you are unaware of. I imagine there will have been probation and psychiatric or other medical reports among others - reports the judge will have seen and you won't.

I agree that on the face of it it seems very lenient though but without knowing all the circumstances you are in no position to comment. The attorney general is highly unlikely to be swayed by a letter from you (sorry)

DogsBeastFiend Thu 13-Oct-11 11:11:25

Andrew, funnily enough I said last night on another forum the very same thing about another, different legal action.

My opinion was not well received by one of the main letter-writers on that forum (see my Foot In Mouth chat thread!). I don't know whether it will be more or less so here but I do know one thing.... you're absolutely right!

bedubabe Thu 13-Oct-11 11:38:19

Is the AG even allowed to be swayed by public opinion? I hope not!

abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 11:39:45

Andrew there is no prosecuting counsel - the prosecuting council is the CPS - they will not intervene, they have stated that they are happy with the sentencing.

Why is this case sentenced differently to the Baby P sentence?

abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 11:41:31

Dogsbeast a letter will make a difference and it is the only way to make a difference. It's what the Attorney General is there for.

abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 11:43:53

bedubabe the Attorney General is there to, among other things, to look at lenient sentencing that involves abuse of the vulnerable:

Apologies for the copy and paste -

"Unduly Lenient Sentences
The Attorney General has the power to ask the Court of Appeal to review some sentences which he thinks are "unduly lenient" - so light that a judge could not reasonably have handed it down. If the Court of Appeal agrees with the Attorney General it can increase the sentence.
This power has been limited by Parliament in two important ways:

1. Only certain cases are eligible
The sentence must be for one of these offences:
more serious crimes which can be dealt with only in the Crown Court, such as murder, rape and robbery
some sex crimes, especially those involving children, but also indecent assault and some
other sex crimes
child cruelty
threats to kill
some serious frauds
some drugs crimes
some racially or religiously aggravated crimes
attempting or inciting any of these.
2. There is a strict 28 day time limit, from the day the sentence was passed.

Complaints need to be sent within the next 25 days from today.

Andrewofgg Thu 13-Oct-11 11:47:14

Abendbrot Yes, there was a prosecuting counsel, one Mr Boyd, and it his duty if it appears that an unduly lenient sentence has been passed to let the Attorney know at once. If CPS have said they are happy with the sentence it is probably because counsel has advised them that it is not unduly lenient in the light of what the Court of Appeal has said in other cases - and that is the test. You were not there throughout, you have not seen the papers and the reports which soandsomummy mentions, so you don't know how the case differs from P. Neither do I.

margerykemp Thu 13-Oct-11 12:41:05

But unlike baby P they didn't actually kill the child. The way I read it was that they had been cruel to the child but then that child died later of unrelated causes, or am I missing something?

It seems very strange to me that only this child was abused.

abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 12:49:38

"Anyone can ask the Attorney General to look at a case
Victims, their families, and members of the public can contact the Attorney General's Office if they think a sentence is much too light."

You don't have to be a legal expert or know the case fully to make a complaint about unduly lenient sentencing.

Andrewofgg Thu 13-Oct-11 12:53:40

Abendbrot They would say that, wouldn't they? It's the times we live in. Nobody wants to say You weren't there, you don't know, leave it to those who do, please.

So yes, you don't have to be a legal expert or know the case fully to make a complaint. But the advice of those who are and do may be just a bit more influential.

And indeed bedubabe neither alleged public opinion nor the reaction of the media is relevant.

abendbrot Thu 13-Oct-11 12:58:58

^Twin M died after suffering numerous unexplained injuries including fractures to the ribs, legs and arms and skull damage affecting the brain and central nervous system.

She also had a mouth ulcer, unexplained scratching to the ears, bleeding in the eyes and injuries to the nose that were "unusual", with damaged tissue suggesting it had been pinched with equal force on both sides by a clasp or clip.

The bone breakages were said to have taken place between 24 hours and six weeks before death, while a postmortem examination found she died of bronchopneumonia.

The victim had only ever been out of her parents' care for a matter of a few hours in her short life.^

Marjery you're correct they didn't actually kill twin M.

PosiesOfPoison Tue 18-Oct-11 12:21:16

Thought I'd update.

Dear Mrs PP
Thank you for your email to the Attorney General's Office regarding the sentences received by Mohammed & Nafisa Karolia.
We have requested further information about the case from the Crown Prosecution Service so that the Law Officers can consider whether the sentences should be referred to the Court of Appeal for review.
We will write to you again once a decision has been taken
Yours sincerely
James Ross
Correspondence Unit

abendbrot Tue 18-Oct-11 12:25:11

SO FAR SO GOOD! thanks

BagofHolly Tue 18-Oct-11 12:46:32

Good for you! Brilliant that this awful case will be looked at again.

abendbrot Tue 18-Oct-11 12:55:16

Here's a link to the other thread that has more details on it if anybody wants to write to the Attorney General.


abendbrot Tue 18-Oct-11 12:55:26

sabas Wed 19-Oct-11 02:09:11

I hadn't heard anything about this case at all, not sure if it would have been covered on national news (I am in Glasgow) but when I read the story I was in tears. It disgusts me that parents could do something like this to their own child, I just cannot understand how people could be so cruel, and why only (apparently) to one child,?

These monsters deserve to be jailed indefintely for what they did to that poor child, the sentence handed out was a joke.

I have emailed the AG and will also contact my MP (hope that my objection will count as I am in Scotland).

abendbrot Wed 19-Oct-11 22:50:50

Hi Sabas - sad isn't it. Scotland have a different system for Scottish cases but I think because this case is in the UK you should approach the UK AG. MPs can also forward the complaint.

abendbrot Wed 19-Oct-11 22:53:07

Here are some cases where unduly lenient sentences have been increased:


abendbrot Wed 19-Oct-11 22:53:31


abendbrot Wed 19-Oct-11 22:54:37

Sorry, perhaps this one will work!


abendbrot Wed 19-Oct-11 22:55:52


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