Advanced search think that 4 year old dd should have sussed toilet training by now?

(58 Posts)
Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 17:50:03

I have so had enough today; we took nappies off dd a year ago at the beginning of August; she had a month at Christmas where she was perfect and then it all went backwards after a dose of flu, and ever since apart from the odd day, the only times when she is consistently good at keeping her pants clean and dry is when we are on holiday. I am having a bad couple of days as we are back from a two week holiday and she is suddenly not going to the toilet at all and screaming and fighting me if I try to suggest it. 4 poos in pants today and I've lost my temper twice badly. It has been a constant battle of wills all year and I feel like jacking it all in. Maybe she should start school next week in nappies...

And yes we have done reward charts and treats before some bright spark suggests it smile

swingingcat Wed 31-Aug-11 18:05:00

Oh I remember those days, hugs to you x

The only thing that worked on my DD was getting her to choose her knickers she was very into Spiderman so they were pants really but she loved spiderman so much she wouldn't soil them!

The school would only accept her if she was clean and dry (no nappies)

Good luck x

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 18:13:41

Thanks swingingcat, we have tried that and every time it works for a while but never lasts. The latest are Disney Princess ones and she loves picking them out in the morning but has no qualms about weeing or pooing over them.

No I won't really send her to school in nappies, just want a rant really (DH and friends getting bored and fed up of the same old story!) on the offchance that someone out there might offer a tiny bit of advice that I haven't thought of before after countless mumsnet searches, visits from HVs...

muriel76 Wed 31-Aug-11 18:15:16

Can I ask, do you make her help clear up when she does have an 'accident?'

Poor you, it sounds v v trying!

KaFayOLay Wed 31-Aug-11 18:17:51

Blimey, you have my sympathy.

Have you warned school that she isn't clean during the day?
The can get quite shirty about having to clear up children's shit, quite rightly so.

My dd was told to be quick at nursery and hence started holding on until the last minute and then run off to the toilet. I was dreading her starting school in case she didn't manage to get to the toilet in time. Thankfully, she never did have an accident.

Fingers crossed your dd is the same!

3littlefrogs Wed 31-Aug-11 18:20:52

4 poos in pants in one day does sound a bit excessive. Are you certain she hasn't got encopresis? Presumably you have taken her to your GP?

Sorry if you have already ruled this out - there is loads of information about this on MN. It just sounds typical of encopresis (withholding, impaction and overflow)to me, from the little bit of information you have given.

Jodianna Wed 31-Aug-11 18:21:28

Had something similar with one of mine. Just told her to go clean herself up everytime she had an accident. She got bored with going upstairs for clean undies and it sorted within a couple of weeks. Negative attention is still attention.
Good luck!

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 18:24:46

I had a quick word with the teacher back in July and he was amazingly fine about it. And yes Muriel the HV suggested last time that she helps to clear up; I remembered it this morning and will be keeping that up.

There is a stupid bit of me that hopes that what she really needs is school to make her do what she needs to do. Must remember not to put all my hopes on that one though...

schobe Wed 31-Aug-11 18:25:57

Why do you think she can manage it on holidays?

Do check out the constipation thing - perhaps unlikely since she seems to be able to control it when she wants to, but worth checking out.

AngryFeet Wed 31-Aug-11 18:27:43

I have had the same problem with DS but luckily somehow he managed to figure it out just in time to start school next month - phew! All you can do is keep encouraging her tbh. If the school are ok with it then there is no problem although it is awkward. Try not to get angry with her (I know it is hard), she WILL get there in the end. I am not 100% that DS won't have a few wee accidents for the first term but DD did too 2 years ago and they were fine with it and she got past it pretty fast.

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 18:28:51

3littlefrogs no it's definitely not a medical problem - the fact that she can do it when she wants to and for 2 weeks on holiday tells me that. Makes it all the more frustrating though! Yes it does sound excessive but it's as if she does a bit in her pants then stops because she realises she's not meant to. I get her to sit on the toilet and try to finish it and sometimes that works but if the moment has passed, she can't/won't and so we have the same problem again an hour or two later...

NervousAboutTheParty Wed 31-Aug-11 18:29:33

I totally understand where you are coming from, I too have had the day from hell. My dd, also 4 and about to start school, wiggles and wiggles and I am constantly suggesting that she goes to the loo. But she tells me she doesn't need to and the she proceeds to pee all over the floor. What makes me cross is not that she wets herself but that she refuses to accept that she needs the loo. To make it worse I have terrible spd so am really tearful as I am in so much pain. I am lucky in that she doesn't poo herself but if I have to mop the floor one more time i will scream. I do try to ignore her but the stamping of the feet because she is so desperate drives me potty, doesn't help that we live in a flat so I am conscious that our neighbours must be annoyed with the stamping too.
Well if you crack it let me know!

muriel76 Wed 31-Aug-11 18:33:02

She most likely won't want to be different at school, so that could be a big help!! That might be all you need.....I hope so as it must be driving you crackers.

The reason I asked re the cleaning up, was my good friend's nine-year-old DD has not been trained at night ever (slightly different I know), my friend didn't want to involve the HV but she did eventually out of desperation and the advice was to ditch the nappies and make her help clean each wet bed, change sheets, put in the machine, remake bed etc. After 2 nights she was dry. My friend said she was just being stubborn, she was fuming when the nappies were taken away and used to look for them and put one on so it was - as you say - all a battle of wills at the end of the day.

As you know your daughter is capable of staying dry, I think I would be taking a bit of a hard line if that doesn't sound too harsh. She can obviously do the toilet thang when she wants to!

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 18:33:09

Schobe I think that some of it is to do with how happy she is - seems better when we are all relaxing together, if she and I have had plenty of quality time together(not easy in school holidays with older ds) or lots of hugs. She seems to almost go backwards in her head when it's bad and acts younger, and also pretends to be animals rather than wanting to be herself. It is heartbreaking sometimes.

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 18:37:11

Nervous how annoying. Sometimes dd makes weeing the issue - this week it is poo though. Luckily she will only do a tiny bit of wee so no mopping here, just telling her to get to the toilet.

piedpiper4 Wed 31-Aug-11 18:42:25

My dd (7) has enuresis problems due to a toilet phobia. She is still not consistently dry, and regularly does a little wet and then runs to the toilet. Due to the phobia she has literally taught herself to ignore the signal between the bladder and brain which tells her she needs the loo. I wonder if your dd is so engrossed in what she's doing that she's not registering the signal? The fact that she's better on holiday may be because you have a different rythm when not at home ie. we're off to the beach/shops/ whereever go to the loo before we leave. My dd is also better when away from home, and I'm certain this is why. Good luck with it...I know how frustrating it is

Flumptious Wed 31-Aug-11 18:44:51

We had this and the same worries about starting school with pooey knickers. It sorted itself but was so so stressful, I do feel for you. I remember hoping that school would sort it as I had no idea what to do next. We had tried doctors, specialist nurses, movicol, bribes, rewards, punishment, special knickers etc.. She was also an August baby so still young.

Looking back though, I made it all the more difficult by being so strung out about it. I struggled not to shout sad and it seemed to rule my days.

After seeing some advice on here I think, I found a pretty box and bought a few cheap, crappy, presents/tat and wrapped them up. I showed them to her and told them they were for having clean knickers and poos in the toilet. I then put it up high, but visibly and didn't mention it again. If she had dirty knickers, I removed them, gave her a wipe and some clean ones and held my tongue. It definately helped.

If it helps, I've been getting to speak to more parents at school and at least 3 have said they had similar issues and worries, boys and girls. It seems surprisingly common, which is nice!

Flumptious Wed 31-Aug-11 18:48:57

Snap with the animal thing too, Black Cat reigns supreme here. Am sure it must be normal.

muriel76 Wed 31-Aug-11 18:56:35

Sorry Groveregg, having read subsequent posts, maybe the harsh line wouldn't be very suitable.

It doesn't sound quite as simple as with my friend's daughter. Apologies.

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 19:10:35

Flumptious we have a similar "poo bag" that has lots of presents in that she gets at the end of a clean day (nothing over £2, we have had it on the go for months) and it has occasional effect but she has learned not to be very materialistic and not get bothered by it. We did have a lot of success with treats of a Squinkie for a poo in the toilet with no messy pants and a bead to thread onto a necklace for every clean wee - but to be honest it has been ridiculously expensive and since we've been back from holidays I have been determined to knock it on the head as she managed fine without on holiday. Not sure if I am shooting myself in the foot though.

Don't worry muriel, I am prepared to listen to any and every bit of advice. HV on the phone told me earlier to be firm but not angry. I find I can do 2 pooey pants in a day but always seem to lose my temper on the third!!!

Groveregg Wed 31-Aug-11 19:16:56

And ours is usually a pink cat! Today though she was yelling at me that she was a tortoise and was getting really cross when I said "no you're my big girl dd"!

Melly20MummyToPoppy Wed 31-Aug-11 19:23:24

I feel for you OP, no advice but i thought i'd share, my niece is suddenly in the habit of going to sit on the loo and does her wee/poo before pulling her trousers and pants down. My poor sisters at her wits end!

Really hope you crack it soon!

Melly20MummyToPoppy Wed 31-Aug-11 19:24:53

She's 2.5yo by the way.

Flumptious Wed 31-Aug-11 19:38:34


It will pass, honestly. Maybe talk to the teacher too? I did that and actually, she only came home from school twice with her knickers in her bag. The teacher also said it's very common and not to worry. Also that reception classes always smell vile!!

I think peer pressure helps to an extent too.

Will be ok. smile

Choufleur Wed 31-Aug-11 19:54:10

Is there something that she really really wants as a bigger bribe for going to the toilet consistently?

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