to Ask What Constitutes a Criminal Act of Intimidating/Threate
ning behaviour & Am I Right To Be Feeling P'd Off That This Seems Not To Be Taken Seriously????
Excuse if tittle poorly worded, spelling etc, I'm exhausted & have sat here later than my bed was calling me, due to promised phone call from PC who was to ring with an update on a complaint I have made - He was meant to Ring Between 10 & 11pm as he's now on Night Shift - still no phone call
I Don't really know where to put this TBH, so hope this is okay as it is sort of AIBU...
Bit of Background...
We have new neighbours in the Pub next door They seem very friendly & make a big deal of wanting to be good neighbours re sound etc - going to have it as an art house type bar with a bit of acoustic jazz - improvement on previous so all sounds good - though a few things didn't add up - IE he professes to be an ex builder - but didn't know building regs & was sanding floors, drilling etc way past time -& all weekend - until we went round & gave him building regs
Several more minor, but loud & out of order incidents on the run up to this, including DH having a word with him & coming back declaring he was to drunk to have a conversation with, so no point or he'd be tempted to punch him & This Friday outrageously taking the P with a full live band thumping through our house & my getting so ill as a result of him by passing the limiter w that I flip & go round & read him the riot act not screaming swearing, not my style more school ma'am & taking no shit - see Mr polite & meek inside the pub & then he comes outside & becomes Mr Hyde again & basically tells me he'll do what he likes
So this Saturday we have a festival - I check with friends involved with running it weeks ago & the Pub next door is not involved & no street party - so we stay home- landlord tells me the same thing & that they are expecting a quiet one-
11am Sat - he has full set of Decks & Full Amps on the pavement practically outside our front door
Music BOOMING in every room of the house - the whole house is shaking - Police rang, no noise people to ring as too early - thankfully our friend spots me in the street & tells me she's onto them already & has got hold of the noise people herself
Turned out they gave him a warning that he ignored - several calls to Police &etc later & we find out he has a TENS license until 4 am & he;s ignoring all official warnings as he knows they are too busy to do anything - & on & on all weekend until late Sunday night - 1.30 am when I went to bed, squashed with 3 of us, sleeping pills & ear plugs
Anyway I'm ranting - sorry
I have an idea to try & get the noise & him ignoring his agreed hours recored on video on my camera - its so bad it even picks it up indoors - go out to my front doorstep to record the level in the street as it is mental - especially as every where else has now packed up & streets are clear & have him come racing over all aggressive, giving it large with Pitbull over on MY doorstep in a very threatening manner,
I have my camera in my hand, which is switched onto video, but at that point pointing down as I'm just stepping out of my door & he mouths to me " you don't want to mess with me" - not spoken, but snarled without sound IYSWIM - but then goes onto to start snarling in my face in that same slow measured intimidating tone - "you don't take photos of me & my pub,
you need my p e r m i sssh i o n" - you speak to my l a w y e r - (which I know is bollocks)
body language is very aggressive & though I front him out - with - I've nothing to say to you - etc - I AM very shaken by this & do feel very vulnerable - though thankfully the adrenaline kicked in & I remember to swing the camera upward hoping to get him on video - which I did - though missed his first mouthed threat, I got the rest - I realise with hindsight he didn't realise I was videoing & he mouthed the actual threat as a couple of other people in the street outside his pub
lots more, but I'm sure your bored & confused enough by now
I've never made a Police complaint like this before, & I don't feel they are taking it that serously - the community Police did arrive but that was about the noise - even though I had rang & reported it - I was shaking like a leaf by that time & went to peices n getting indoors - I didn't wake DH, as he could loose his job if he thumped him - which after a few beers he might well have
I have seen him since & though he didn't speak he DID act in a threatening manner again, by slowing right down when he walked passed me & turning his head in my direction & glaring - I looked straight ahead & carried on chatting to DD as if nothing happened, but again felt shook up - especially as I'm ill aftr the wekend & needing to use my stick & VERY angry he did it in front of DD who noticed
AIBU, to think this really is an offence - him threatening on my doorstep etc & what would the proper legal term be & are the Police being slack - I have been in for an interview & left the DVD but it was very informal & the PC was meant to be letting me know if they thought the disc was evidence or not - I've had to chase & no return call promised toninght
Your thread titles are making no sense tonight. And too many emoticons.
And what is a PC?
Its no excuse for menacing behavior but you probably pissed him off with;
IE he professes to be an ex builder - but didn't know building regs & was sanding floors, drilling etc way past time -& all weekend - until we went round & gave him building regs
He should be considerate when doing this sort of thing, but I also think that if you have a new neighbour who has some work to do on a property you have to give a bit of leeway with that sort of thing assuming its not going to last forever.
I recall being pregnant [at the early extreme tiredness stage] and my neighbour was putting in a wooden floor....lots of tap tap tapping in the evenings up to 12am, BUT! he worked fulltime and had to fit the work in as and when. I knew he wasnt doing it to piss me off!
Some people dont like being 'told' what to do, maybe he felt thats what you were doing?
Again its not an excuse for his behavior and I can totally understand you being fed up with the unreasonable noise.
What was the threat? I am reading a lot of body language. I'd get hold of the council about the noise though and see how many of the neighbours will join you to get this noise nuisance quieted.
Maras - the lots of people live next door to pubs and have no problems. Infact OP didn't have a problem til this selfish bully moved in.
PC = policeman, Rhinestone.
I'm really sorry you are having to put up with all this. You ned to sit DH down and agree that you will stay calm, not do tit for tat and not hit the man.
Then start you own log. Both of you should write down everything and keep writing everything down - including dates, witnessess and if you contacted police.
Keep contacting police about any threats or intimidation. They must log even minor things too - it will all add up.
Log each noise disturbance and report to noise people.
Talk to your neighbours about the noise pollution. Let the lady you saw lead the rally to complain but encourage others to back her up.
To me it sounds lie he is a very selfish bully. All that building/banging DIY/music late at night. And his horrible threats/threatening behaviour - I'm not surprised you feel intimidated and upset!
Does he own the pub or is it being leased? Is there anyone higher than him? A head office if the pub is in a chain?
I think neighbour disputes like this can take over your life and make you ill. You seemed to go in very heavy handed with complaining straight off the bat and probably pissed him off.
From his point of view he has a licence until 4am so you going and videoing him and his customers is going to annoy him.
Him shouldnt have threatened you and sounds like a nasty piece of work, but do you really want to get in to a dispute where you feel nervous in your own street and intimidated by your next door neighbour?
I would drop a note through the door saying you all got off on the wrong foot and asking for consideration and compromise on both sides. If you life next to a pub there is going to be some noise ( did you have problems before, you mention the previous owners) but he needs to sccept that if he is in a more residential area he needs to be respectful of that.
OP please contact the licensing department at your local council. They should have police and environmental health officers working specifically with licensed premises and they may be able to assist.
oh Gawd I did it again didn't I [rollseyes] I tried to give a bit of background & ended up not explaining myself well at all
Okay a bit more background - I'm slightly clearer headed this morning after a reasonable nights sleep - still ill though, so don't be too hard on me if I get it wrong - bullet points might help if thats okay
1, I should of added I do have health problems, Fibromyalgia, M.E. & Chronic Migraine for my sins, dealing with a bad flare up ATM due to stress, not being able to pace myself with rest & lack of sleep over the weekend, & pretty much being forced out of our home due to the extreme noise from the pub - my brain gets in a REAL muddle during a flare - officially "cognitive impairment" - think trying to function when you haven't slept at all for 90 hrs - that pretty much sums it up - so apologies for the rubbish post - without the flare it also makes certain types of noise "painful" in the way it would for someone with Autism......I also had music breaking through from a band ringing in my ears again & no-one I could ring to stop it
2. We've lived here a long time - over 10 years, Our house used to be part of the Pub, but with decent soundproofing & when we lived next door to a Pub, as opposed to a live music venue, Kareoke bar, Pre club warm up bar, its been great, we love living centrally, though its the quiet end of a side street - or would be, bar our neighbours - living next to a Pub in the past, with young DCs has been brilliant as it meant we could have a social life - ie meet our friends in there & take turns in popping home to sit in with DD.... living here is also a good spot for my work.
3. Our problems started 4 year ago, with the retirement of a 14 year landlord, then taken over by a lovely Lesbian couple who we became friends with, had various parties in there etc etc - but it was always a PUB, nothing more & those neighbours were always very respectful & rarely ever disturbed us.
4. 4 years ago the Brewery sold the Pub from out under the Girls feet & we then got a Gay couple who ripped the place apart - including ripping out all the soundproofing as it gave them an extra couple of feet in the bar & meant they could put in extra toilets - these lot were doing major building works & on a party wall at 3 am - live entertainment, DJs, Kareoke & Pre Club warm up started there
5. Nightmare started from there onwards - we have been dealing with EH since then &TBH have found them, or should I say the whole system worse than useless - in that its diary's, which I struggle with - noise patrol only between 10 - 3 on Fri & Sat, music breaking through into this bedroom, has been witnessed, though never at its worst & isn't considered a "statutory nuisance" as its not a main bedroom, they insist on listing it as bedroom/office - we have a big problem with toilet noise also in the middle of our living room - due to extra toilets- that took 2 years for EH to finally do something about - it wasn't enough, but they won't have any of it & say they can't force pub to reinstate the single toilet as it wont be big enough
6. Dat machines have been in place over the years, have record noise, but EH are pretty toothless - also the system means the Pub is warned they are "under investigation" so of course keep it down making it hard to get evidence
7. Several Changes of ownership over the last 4 years has also hampered getting the problem sorted, as the system works by it being the Landlord/Licensee that are at fault, not the actual Pub, so just as we are starting to get somewhere - then get new people & have to start all over again.
8. last owners were there 2 years, it became a busy noisy Lesbian bar with DJs etc, but they had friends in high places & it was even harder to get our problems taken seriously & we know for fact that every time we called out noise patrol they were tipped off - we had our window broken by a customer & regular thumping & shouting of abuse at our front window & accusations of being Homophobic for complaining - this is a massive insult to both me & DH, as nothing could be further from the truth - DD Godfather is gay for a start ---
9.The Breweries suggestions for sorting out the noise problem was to soundproof OUR side of the walls - losing space in OUR property - & as I say EH were toothless - they filled in a door space they found on a dividing wall & EH accepted that as enough - problems are not soley with walls, & need a structural engineer to work out how/what is needed - IE ground floor Bar noise, is worse in the 1st floor front bedrooms - we have already sound proofed that party wall, at our expense & built fitted wardrobes along it in the hope of soaking up sound - it did little
10.We have in the past seen our MP - he was very sympathetic & I really thought from us speaking to him that he would help, though I was a bit dubious of his attitude to it being a Gay bar - he DID understand that likely meant the noise & other problems would be bad, but some of the things he came out with were bordering on Homophobic - he did little more than ring EH & pass it back to them - though finding out later he was on the list of expenses fraud gits, so I suspect he had other things on his mind
11. After a couple of months of an empty Pub, due to Owners suddenly leaving - the recent building noise started - it was often going on until 10pm & more - waking DD who had to be up for School & she was also still, potentially seriously so with Kawasaki Disease - she also suffers with IBS - DH has to be up for work at 5, so goes to bed early.
On ringing the Brewery, we were told the last Couple HADN"T sold it, so when we went round with building regs, we thought we were confronting people we had already had problems with for 2 years -
12. we were actually very relieved to realise we had new neighbours, they seemed lovely, very friendly, wanted to know the history of the Pub & made a point of letting us know they intended to run it as a PUB, with occasional acoustic music, low key & appealing to an older arty crowd, & concentrating on food, which for where it is, is the most sensible business plan for it & how it was when the 14yr tenant made it a success -
We were happy to take them at face value, my comment on him not knowing the building regs as a builder, was a not a , but with hindsight it was a clue to what we now know is his real dishonest character.
13.Over the last few months we have been more than accommodating to the new owners - the Pub already does have a lot of restrictions on it, as its at the quiet residential end of a street, things like keeping their side door closed to stop smokers using ours & other nieghbours windowsills as pub seating - & to help with noise from music etc - he asked if they could open it due to the hot weather - we agreed to see how it went, asking that he close it when the band went on - stage is right next to this door - & if he could keep an eye on his customers as regards smoking outside our house - not just the smoke but weird acoustics around here means their chattering wakes DD as its amplified upwards
He did neither & started leaving the door open all night, even sitting on our windowsill chatting to customers & on his phone himself
12. The Pub has a limiter in place, which is meant to cut out all the electrics if the sound goes above a certain level - we know from publican/club owner friends that these are easily got around if you are that way inclined - EH won't accept that this is possible
13. my going around to ask him to turn it down & stop the foot stomping on the small bare wooden stage, was initially friendly enough - thats how he has put himself to us "talk to me if you hear anything & it bothers you, I want to be good a neighbour" - his attitude changed when I disagreed with him when he said " but what can I do, they are a band, they make a noise, thats life, its only a few hours, you are just going to have to live with it" -
he was still being very charming up until that point - it only changed when I reminded him that he could either deal with us, or EH & that HE was the bands employer, so it was his responsibility to sort it out & that restrictions were already in place which he was breaking - he's only allowed a duo in there for a start - its a tiny pub.
14. DH had the same thing the week before, but he put it down to the pub owner being drunk (which is illegal when on duty anyway), so we carried on being civil to him & giving him the benefit of the doubt, though by this time we are very worried as he is taking the P big time.
15. I AM & was very shaken by the pub owners threatening behaviour & he is already now making a campaign of it, though subtly so, I don't scare easily, but theres something very unnerving about this guys Jeckle & Hyde character - that said my work back ground means I'm good at fronting people out & don't show fear despite shaking in my boots - I vomited after Sundays threats & was still shaking when the community Police came about the noise
16. the video I took is by way of proof the he can & DOES overide the limiter - the noise level in our house & street was akin to a jumbo jet taking off & I'm not kidding - we went to a friends Pub, who DID have license to join the street party & amps outside & it was half as quiet again & he owns a big pub -
EH, despite witnessing this themselves - proving he is over-riding the limiter as did the community Police, are refusing to follow it up as it was a festival - so like I say, they know he is breaking the law & has shown he knows how too, but are doing nothing - my chat with their manager yesterday was ridiculous - she actually said " he doesn't strike me as a well man & is only trying to promote his business,, & we are too busy to follow up every complaint, so no point in sending us your video as we won't have time to look at it.
17. I did finally get the right info yesterday as to who to speak to & spoke with EH Licensing - for the first time someone actually listened & is following through, so theres hope - the system of complaint is ridiculously complicated & getting info out of them is hard work around here
Non of the above ridiculously long reply is really relevant to my question, but as some of you have asked/made assumptions , I've answered & given you a proper background.
If anyone can answer my real question, as to what the threatening/intimidating behaviour offence is actually called & what constitutes that offence I would be really grateful
& thank you to those of you who have understood how awful it is living with this - yes it makes us ill - me & DD especially -
DD broke down in Hysterics on Monday when we tried to put her back in her own bedroom, screaming that she hates the nasty man (she doesn't know about the threats) & wishes he would go away & he's ruined her room forever & that she hates living here now & is sick of been woken up & this man is the worst of all - she ended up, up all night with raging diareah as a result
was the pub there when you moved to that house
pubs are noisy
pubs have events
pubs have music and visitors
sorry but you sound a bit like victor meldrew, without the charm
OP, there's no way I can read that mammoth post above now, but I can give you some concise advice.
The pub. The hours it can operate and play music especially loud music are a matter for the LICENSING DEPARTMENT at the Council and you should make a complaint to them.
The noise. This is a matter for the noise team in ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH, again at the Council, and you should complain to them and it is they who will want to see any evidence you have, although you should also request that they come and collect their own - and ask them to liaise with Licensing.
The behaviour. This is a matter for two teams who should liaise - the Police, and the Council's ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR UNIT. I would report to the Council's ASBU and ask them to liaise with the police, Licensing and Env Health. I would also phone the police and ask for an update and tell them that you are involving the Council.
Good luck. You might also want to seek the support of your local councillor - details on your council's website. Some are very good indeed at support and advice.
Thank you so much Linerunner thats the first time I've heard of the Councils ASB Unit - I will look into that
I've already done the rest & bar hope from yesterdays chat with EHL we've got nowhere - but thank you anyway
& yes fifi we probably are all a bit Victor Meldrew in this house these days - but living with this sort of constant crap does get you like that & we bought a house next to a PUB, not a nightclub or live music venue, which is what we now find ourselves living next too
People should be able to live next to pubs that obey the conditions of their license without complaint. Most do.
However new pub landords can take over and start breaching licensing conditions - going over the licensed hours regarding music; playing live music when they don't have a live music license; leaving doors propped open when they should be closed; serving drink to drunks; etc.
It can disturb a whole neighbourhood, and breaching a pub license is a serious matter in law. Yet people do it - and many of these pubs end up shut down and turned into just another set of flats.
Thank you for understanding linerunner -
we are not unused to Fifis type of attitude over it though - it usually comes from people who live in a quiet area & have never experienced the type of stress this sort of noise nuisance can cause -
one friend of ours who used to live here as a lodger, gave us real earache over it, reckoned it was because we have kids & needed to get out more - DD is nearly 9 - not 4 -
that was UNTIL he came round one night & next door kicked off - he was horrified at how different it is now, compared to how it was when he lived here - he was meant to be staying over, but got an expensive cab home instead - might have been funny if we didn't have to live with it - he offered to be witness - but then the Pub changed hands - AGAIN
Ironically DDs bedroom is actually at the front of the house, because THAT used to be the quietest bit in the evening, the back carries noise up until 11, so it made
Just a thought - although the council will take action against the licensee (the 'pub landlord'), there's nothing to stop you writing to complain to the pub freeholder. It may be a large well-known company.
You can report him for assault. Remember Assault and Battery, the Assault is the verbal part. If you report an assault, state that it's verbal. It's illegal, the police have to follow it up. You have a record of it on your camera. You can also report for threatening behaviour.
Thanks for the further replies
right now I feel quite gutted,that after having to ring yet again today I finally got an e-mail back from the PC that I saw -
says he's looked at the video & doesn't see any criminal offence - but can hear very loud music, so is passing it onto licensing, but not taking it any further as far as my complaint of harrasment - or whatever - the rest of the e-mail goes onto tell me he doesn't have time to call & I quote -
At this stage, I cannot see any offences that have been committed. I understand that this has left you feeling angry and upset as you have not been able to rest in your home, however there are no criminal offences to investigate at this stage
I feel as if they are seeing it as my being out to get the landlord because of the noise, which though we do want that sorted, in 4 years of dealing with this I have not made a Police complaint like this, so why would I take to lying now
- this guy is DEFINITELY trying to harrass me - I've just had to walk a very long way home, to avoid passing the pub when he has likely been drinking & will be expecting us to complain as he has loud live music on again - I'm using a stick, so thats not something I do for no reason, I just feel really let down right now
I didn't get the actual mouthed threat on tape, just his feet marching up to my door, with dog & the did get him with the very measured intimidating body language & speech telling me I need permission - drawled out almost letter by letter etc - in a Mr Blonde Reservoir Dogs kind of way- he was DEFINITELY trying to be threatening - succeeded too & then again on Wed, witnessed by my DD & I've had it again yesterday with him coming to the door of the Pub & glaring menacingly as i go past
how the hell do people ever get these things taken seriously, when I actually had taped evidence of part of it, which DH & another friend both agree shows him intimidating me on my own doorstep - just so let down
& just had to put DD in our bed again, as loud music in her room until 11.30 - no sign of noise patrol - again
"giving it large with Pitbull over on MY doorstep in a very threatening manner,"
Other than that you have obvious grounds for complaint but please remember that it's Friday night and you are not the only person the Police have to deal with, they're probably dealing with more serious matters.
Good advice here re the ASB department of your council. I'm sure that the Police will get back to you too when they have time and that they'll explain why they haven't done so this evening.
Dogs --- you read me wrong
the Pitbull is actually really sweet, I made friends with it in the beginning, when the Landlord was still being friendly - I was a bit puzzled that the LL pulled the Dog away when I tried to stroke it & clearly didn't like me talking/fusing over it, which did seem strane, but didn't think too much of it.
I don't have a problem with Pitbulls, or any Dog per se - I have know a "Devil Dog" American Pitbull very well & he was an amazing dog, a real big softy
So its NOT the Dog itself, its the way this Guy is using it - surely you must see/know this sort of Pitbull owner, where they are more of a thug accessory than an actual pet & used to make them look "hard" - THAT is how this Guy uses it when he is being his "Mr Hyde" self -
& unfortunately for us, he has convinced EH, that he is the nice guy that we first thought he was - EH are actually feeling sorry for the guy - but of course he hasn't shown them his other side
& FTR I have never actually seem him been nice to the Dog - he doesn't even talk to it, or fuss over it - I don't see ANY of my Dog loving friends act that way with their pets - when I met it for the first time I got the impression the poor thing was desperate for a bit of attention
I can sympathise with you - we live next door to a pub, but fortunately there is quite a gap between our 2 properies, and it is in a conservation area - so very limited in what licensing will allow - a previous landlord applied for late licenses, karoake and live music every week, but was refused because the village mafia rose up against it!
Can I suggest that you take one massive step back from it all - easier said than done I realise. It sounds like it has taken over your life completely, and whilst this is understandable, it is doing you more harm than good. You have, to a certain extent 'projected' the problems of the last 4yrs onto a brand new landlord - who (although sounds like an utter bully) is not responsible for your previous problems with the pub.
I think, in these situations you do have to be very careful not to become the 'moaning neighbour'. You need to choose your battles - it was silly to kick up a fuss over the drilling & DIY at 10pm - this was obviously only a temporary thing because he had just taken over the pub, surely? That did set you up on the wrong foot.
You need to think about some things that will make your own lives easier, and for your health, and stop having a 'war' with the pub. The soundproofing - look into it for goodness sake. How about double/triple secondary glazing? Wooden shutters? An extra layer of sound-proofed plaster board on the inside wall, closest to the pub? All these things can make a difference.
I used to hate the fact that people in front of the pub outside could see into our driveway and would gawp at me putting my children into the car - so we built the side wall a bit higher, put a massive trellis on top and bingo - attractive screening and no more leering men! You need to think of strategies to make your own life easier. Plants and shrubs make an excellent screening and a level of soundproofing - is there any way you can get some screening between the pub and your house? Can you have a family holiday/get away from the place for a bit? It sounds like you could do with a break tbh.
Rather than tackling the landlord/EH on your own, get the neighbour you mentioned to co-ordinate a neighbourhood response, rather than just complaining as an individual - it's much more powerful.
Finally, as this was obviously what you were looking for advice about - if you want to make the police take threatening behaviour seriously, you need to call them back and calmly explain to them that you feel under threat in your own home and you want this taken further. There doesn't need to be video evidence. Yes, it does sound threatening and horrible behaviour - but to be absolutely frank, it's not going to have police rushing to your door on a Friday night, as someone else said, they do probably have more serious things to deal with.
Just try to take comfort in the fact that this landlord probably won't last long either, hopefully you won't have to put up with it forever.
To OP. First of all sympathies. Having ME / chronic fatigue definitely makes it harder to cope with all this noise, stress and disruption, so I really sympathise.
I haven't got anything to add to what others have said. (except personally I think drilling at 10 p.m. is pretty unreasonable).
Neighbour problems are very difficult issues. As one poster said, it seems some people do just not like being told, however reasonable.
I don't understand the whole story (it is very long!) but it sounds to me like none of the authorities are using their teeth. You need to give them a bit of time, and lots of evidence, the log book, copy letters, etc. Try to make it as unemotional and descriptive as possible. I think that can really help you case.
You know, the legal option ... instructing a solicitor ... is always an option when all else fails.
p.s. is moving an option?
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