to think some people's attitudes are disgusting?

[TheRhubarb]

A thread about a thread and a sense of despair. There is a thread on mumsnet suggesting that babies be taken from parents at birth if the parents are, in her words "scum". Is this what we have become?

As much as I loathe and detest what the rioters have done let's take a step back here. There have been riots in Greece over cuts, protests in Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. All we've had so far are a few half-hearted protests whilst the government pisses off on yet another holiday and banks and energy companies publish record profits yet again. Were these riots not predicted at all?

You have generations of children born into families who have never worked and who live in a cycle of poverty. The charities and organisations that worked tirelessly to keep youths off the streets and give them hope have been disbanded due to cuts. So far 2,220 charities have been directly affected, the largest number in Birmingham and the second largest in London. Research also shows the the most deprived areas are those which are hardest hit.

When you live in a society that bombards you with images of footballers wives sunning themselves on holiday and you have a government that decided to all take their holidays at the same time whilst many families are forced to cancel their holidays then you can have some understanding of the hotbed of anger and resentment. Job losses are huge, benefits cut, the maintenance allowance to enable youths to go to college is scrapped, petrol prices are huge, energy prices up again and everyone is blaming each other.

I'm sorry but when a society breaks down you have to look deeper than just parental influence, you have to look at what help there is available. Because as a society we are all responsible for what happens. We all have a part to play and just pointing the finger of blame at so called 'scum' is offensive and narrow minded. If there are scum out there then we, as a society created them. This country is in danger of becoming as corrupt as Italy. The energy companies get away with murder, no-one now bats an eyelid at petrol price hikes, the banks are still making huge profits and the government are targeting the poorest to make them pay for the mistakes of the rich. Where there is corruption on this scale there will be riots.

There is no excuse for tearing apart people's businesses or burning down homes, but just pointing the finger of blame at each other will not help.

Rant over.

[LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726]

Why did you just post this on the other thread? It's getting confusing switching back and forth from all the multiple threads.

[LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726]

Why didn't you, I meant.

[sassyTHEFIRST]

Very well said, Rhub.

Hear Hear.

(Please note, all; that is how you spell it)

[fargate]

''No-one is born evil''

Henning Mankell, 2011

[FreudianSlipper]

i totally agree

great post

[BertieBotts]

Was watching an old episode of QI last night, and the biggest factor for how happy a country's residents are are how close the gap is between rich and poor. Smaller gap = happier people. Bigger gap = less happy. The gap has been increasing in Britain for the last 70 years. In the last 30-40 years it's increased massively. Yes, everyone is getting richer, but the rich are getting richer faster.

We should have listened to Marx

[SiamoFottuti]

This warrants its own thread, since you have countless ranting with increasingly violent notions of retribution.

Some posts on these threads have been truly shocking, and I am hard to shock. I imagine most of it is mindless posturing rhetoric, but some people commenting would be dangerous if given any power, and tbh I'd feel safer with the looters than with some of the rabidly revengeful posters here.

[worldgonecrazy]

These are not rioters, they are looters, in other words, criminals.

Society does play a part in creating these criminals, but it is not entirely at fault, personal responsibility has to feature in there as well. It is not society holding these people at gunpoint, forcing them to go up to a shop, smash the windows and steal goods. It is their choice to do this.

Yes, we need projects in place to try and stop young people falling into this lifestyle. We also need to punish, and punish hard, those who are doing it. Children need to learn that there are consequences to their actions, and by learning this, they will begin to think about actions before they carry them out.

[Itsalljustabitweird]

YANBU at all. Exactly how I feel, but you have said it much better. Thank you.

[rainbowtoenails]

Thank you for starting this thread. I was really starting to wonder why we bothered fighting the nazis when I read some of the posts on that other thread.

[bubblesincoffee]

We as a society have not created this.

Individuals have to take some responsibility for themselves.

If some people can live an honest life on benefits and with out many prospects, then everyone can. There is no excuse for this behaviour. Lots of us have to look at the celebrity lifestyle with no hope of ever being able to afford anything remotely simelar. A feeling of jealoust because a few footballers can live the dream does not mean everyone has the right to the same.

The truth is, these people can't be arsed to try and better themselves. It involves hard work and they simply cant be bothered. Stealing from others is so much easier.

The only way that society has helped create this mess is by giving people something for nothing. Children are brought up by parents who 'know their rights', 'know what they are entitled to', and that has created an attitude where people think they are entitled to have a good standard of living that they can't afford and don't have to work for, just because they live in the UK.

[Cheria]

YANBU I was so appaled at that thread I couldn't bring myself to answer.

Some people are only half a step away from pure fascism and it is terrifying that their views are held to be acceptable by so many.

[cyb]

I agree with bubbles

[BertieBotts]

yy Cheria

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

YANBU and I haven't read the other thread, didn't like the look of it.

But, therse aren't rioters we've had. They're vandals and thieves at best. Different kettle of fish to rioting over a particular issue. So to compare with other countries YABU.

[mumeeee]

YANBU Rhubarb. I totally agree with you and was very shocked at the posts on that thread.

[milkmilklemonade]

I agree with bubbles.

[TheRhubarb]

I will not post on threads that contain such hateful messages. There are facebook groups now being set up to target and attack people suspected of being at the riots. I understand that people are angry but is this the way to go about it? Acts of retribution? People calling them feral rats, scum and calling for public flogging?

bubbles, you cannot live a decent life on benefits, I've tried it. To be honest it's even worse for those just above the threshold for benefits, who receive no help at all, who've had their tax credits cut and childcare taken away. Is it any wonder that so many people decide to claim benefits when they cannot make ends meet by working? All the childcare help that Labour put in place has been taken away by the Tories and with the pay freezes and pay cuts (my dh either had to take a demotion and a huge pay cut or face redundancy) people are struggling just to survive.

Then when the PM goes off to Tuscany, the deputy PM is off on his hols, Osbourne and Boris Johnson too you realise that those people making the decisions, those people who are responsible for this hand to mouth living, don't actually give a crap.

What standard of living is it when your home is being repossessed? When elderly people die of cold in the winter? I don't see them jumping up and down about their rights to a good standard of living.

This country is corrupt and the gap between rich and poor, as someone said, is huge. And then you do get riots because the rioters don't feel any connection to society, they are told they are scum and so they act like scum, they are told they are worthless, that they will never amount to anything, that there is no hope for them. The places they used to go to for support have been closed down. And a more worrying thought is that with the so called 'scum' rioters there were also arrests of civil servants, a university graduate, a professional accountant and so on. What pushed them to riot on the streets of London? What does it take to break a person?

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right, but should we be making the situation worse by telling them over and over again that they are scum, the lowest of the low and so on? You reap what you sow.

[spudulika]

"We as a society have not created this."

We have.

We've created a culture which worships wealth and encourages acquisitiveness above all else.

This is the culture that shapes the values of these kids.

In our society it's quite possible for families to be cold in winter, to go through life without ever having a proper holiday, and to struggle to provide good quality food for their children - and this includes families where the adults are in full-time work.

At the same time celebrities, bankers and oligarchs spend obscene amounts of money on fuelling their luxury lifestyles, and this appears to be a cause for celebration and admiration in the media rather than concern or cynicism.


BertieBotts is right - inequality has created a poisonous social environment in the UK.

[usualsuspect]

I knew this would turn into a benefits bashing thread

OP I agree with every word you said

[SiamoFottuti]

of course we have. Society creates us all, its incredibly naive to think we are all individual islands with no connection to each other.

As the saying (kind of) goes, a people gets the kind of society they deserve.

[Jenski]

Rhubarb - I totally agree and thank you for putting it so well.

It is so sad to see 'kids' that feel they have nothing to lose by rioting, looting etc..

[BimboNo5]

A few half hearted protests?
Have you been NEAR any of this? You see how half hearted it feels when 300 hooded and masked yobs are surrounding a childrens hospital where parents are scared shitless they may get in, causing them ten times more anxiety than they are already suffering.
Im fed up of it always being 'societies fault' never the individuals or the rubbish parents who drag them up.