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To think the UK & USA are bankrupt?

(28 Posts)
NorhamGardens Tue 14-Jun-11 09:30:36

And when there is another financial crisis they will have no option but to look to China to bail them out? Surely the US, as already trillions in debt, can't continue to print money etc?

Fast forward 20-50 years it could be that China run/own vast amounts of the world's economy including most of the banks?

I am no economist & looking for someone to explain if this is as likely as some seem to imagine & what the implications will be?

chicletteeth Tue 14-Jun-11 09:34:51

China has a lot of debt too.
That said both the UK and the US are in a bad way financially.

NorhamGardens Tue 14-Jun-11 09:50:01

China is going through a huge period of growth. Recently visited Bejing & was blown away by how it's developed in recent years, Ferarri garages, Apple stores that stretch for a whole block etc.

As for debt they've recently offered to buy a huge slice of European debt. They are emerging as the West's likely creditors surely?

kaid100 Tue 14-Jun-11 10:15:49

I don't think the UK and USA are bankrupt yet, but it's probably fair to say that they have maxed out their credit cards.

Hammy02 Tue 14-Jun-11 10:19:12

I just wish the UK realised it is not the super-power it once was and butt out of other country's affairs. Including wars and aid. We are small fry now and need to realise that.

M0naLisa Tue 14-Jun-11 10:30:04

UK can't be that skint as they just given £814m to third world for vaccines - ermm isn't that what comic relief helps towards?? And CIN!

Charity starts at home.

M0naLisa Tue 14-Jun-11 10:30:04

UK can't be that skint as they just given £814m to third world for vaccines - ermm isn't that what comic relief helps towards?? And CIN!

Charity starts at home.

LDNmummy Tue 14-Jun-11 11:35:27

Bump, I'm no economist either and would like to see what others think too.

NorhamGardens Tue 14-Jun-11 12:00:49

From what I read China has 3 trillion dollars in reserves.

America has been likened to a relative that keeps maxing out credit cards and spending over and over money he hasn't got. Eventually he will go bankrupt. American banks/bankers can only be bailed out so many times I guess?

From what I read some predict within 5 years America will be in serious trouble. The dollar will eventually collapse and interest rates will rise. The only way through will be to cut spending dramatically and this won't be possible/has never been possible in history without significant consequences and significant upheaval.

This is where China comes into play and takes control?

StroppyDad Tue 14-Jun-11 16:13:54

YABU.

Here's an interesting article on the UK's debt www.johannhari.com/2011/03/29/the-biggest-lie-in-british-politics

Quote: ' Britain’s national debt has been higher than it is now for 200 of the past 250 years. ... If we are “bust” today, as George Osborne has claimed, then we have almost always been bust. We were bust when we pioneered the Industrial Revolution. We were bust when we ruled a quarter of the world. We were bust when we beat the Nazis. We were bust when we built the NHS. Or is it George Osborne’s economics that are bust?'

Meglet Tue 14-Jun-11 16:15:41

Don't China have millions of $$$$ of US bonds or something, and if they sell them they could tip the USA over the edge?

I'm sure we're all screwed tbh. <<looks at tiny veg patch to see us through>>.

WibblyBibble Tue 14-Jun-11 16:41:11

What StroppyDad said. Also, every country in the world is 'in debt' in the way the UK and US are- it's entirely made up lending, based on 'future growth'. There's no reason to allow a fictional system to dictate people's lives- enough food is produced in the world for everyone (and surplus), so no, no one really needs to starve or suffer if the profit/growth economy was changed to a human based one.

See: www.economicsonline.co.uk/Global%20macro-economics%20graphs/National_debt_UK.png
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html
(Note that these aren't exactly left wing sites- it's basic macroeconomics, the stuff that politicians ignore in favour of ideological rhetoric).

mdowdall Tue 14-Jun-11 22:29:37

No YANBU OP. The UK is in deep shit, as is the US.
Visit www.housepricecrash.co.uk
There are a few loons on there but also some v v bright people, many of whom predicted the recession we are seeing (and a good few who were saying as far back as 2005 that there would be a run on a bank sooner or later).
The thought-leaders on that site all say pretty much the same thing - namely that quantative easing - printing money - by the Bank of Eng has merely papered over the cracks until tomorrow. The 'real' economy is well and truly knackered.
FWIW, in the course of my job I speak to lots of business owners. All are telling me the same thing - it's a nightmare out there...far, far worse than the recessions of the yesteryear.

PurveyorOfBaloney Tue 14-Jun-11 22:32:07

Morally bankrupt maybe ...

BelleDameSansMerci Tue 14-Jun-11 22:35:22

Purveryor - you beat me to it!!

Otherwise, agree with StroppyDad.

Riveninside Tue 14-Jun-11 22:36:15

Seems to be plenty of money sloshing about from what i see with my ow n eyes. Cafes and resturants full, holidays being booked, Harrods stuffed with shoppers and house prices ever rusing.

somethingwitty82 Tue 14-Jun-11 22:50:31

The West is fucked basically, over, kaput, look to impoverished soviet states, thats Britain in 30 years.

There will be no future growth as labour costs are too high and innovation too low.

We are spending more than we earn this year, 2012,2013,2014,2015 and this is planned. It will go on much longer and no one will lend us any money because they do not believe we will be able to pay it back.

China has sold off its US debt and whilst Western credit agencies may claim US has AAA credit rating , chinese credit rating agencys have downgraded it twice.

China is pure evil and murders striking African miners at will, is buying up everything under the sun.

So dont't feel bad about that choclate and wino.

troisgarcons Tue 14-Jun-11 23:11:10

30 years ago, we were having this conversation that China would take over the world by stealth.

"super powers" come and go.

Although, China, murdering Arficans? Invited in to police the mines and give tin-pot dictoriships weapons and arms to allow current regimes to survive. Of course China (or even the old Soviet union) had long term plans. Mugabwe at 85 will only last a few more years.

I'm no economist, I have an interest in social history, but I did 20 years in The City reviewing compliance'. In 2007, I said we were plummeting towards economic breakdown. Total social breakdown is about 10-15 years off (JMHO).

Thereafter society will begin to rebuild.

Everything goes in cycles.

Unfortunately for the UK, it became a service industry rather than a manufacturer. Pretty difficult to function as a world player when you have nothing to offer. 1/4 of the working population are in some form of government/civil service/state occupation - be that teacher/doctor/roadsweeper. Paper shufflers do not add to GDP.

theinet Tue 14-Jun-11 23:15:22

the uk is still one of the biggest exporters in the world, we manufacture loads too , despite some people saying we're a hollowed out debt riddled shell of a nation. with only 60 million people we're one of the biggest world powers in a world of 6 billion.

The chinese are a rapidly developing nation but this is good for them AND us. Growth in international trade and commerce as a result of these countries developing is a great think to be harnessed.

somethingwitty82 Tue 14-Jun-11 23:16:27

Greece is headed down the pan and China is flying in to the rescue to buy up the railways, already owns the biggest port in the med.

Start learning mandarin.

latitude Tue 14-Jun-11 23:19:35

As Niall Ferguson says that "economic disaster is the main cause of imperial fall" and I think this is what is happening, China,Russia and India are going to rival and perhaps overtake the USA and Europe as global superpowers.

TantePiste Tue 14-Jun-11 23:29:05

yanbu as far as I can tell
U.S. is in even worse shape financially than Greece according to Bill Gross

If one could be said to enjoy reading something terrifying, this is thought provoking and an interesting read:
When Government Jumps the Shark

MurphyWasAnOptimist Tue 14-Jun-11 23:46:14

"UK can't be that skint as they just given £814m to third world for vaccines - ermm isn't that what comic relief helps towards?? And CIN!

Charity starts at home."

I think it's hard to begrudge us paying for life-saving vaccines. Of course charity begins at home - but no child need go without a vaccine here. We're still stinking rich compared to the majority in the world and even if we need to tighten our belts a bit, we're STILL living at a standard beyond the reach of most. You're talking about pennies to the save the life of a child, how can we NOT do it?

wordfactory Wed 15-Jun-11 08:31:29

Economic cycles come and go (despite Gordy's assertions to the contrary) and we are currently in a downward spin. Ask anyone at the high end of industry or in the city and they will tell you it's dead out the moment.

This will have serious implications for the tax take in the next few years. How can it not?

At the moment a record number of people are employed by the state and so on the surface it appears business as normal pace the comment about cafes and wotnot being full...but it's not sustainable without the tax take from industry and the city.

AlpinePony Wed 15-Jun-11 08:43:58

YANBU.

I do wonder about China/India though. The US (and others of course) are looking down the barrel of a gun, but , are the US going to roll over and die? Or will they say "fuck you" and do a sovereign default?

When it comes down to "them or us" - I'm not sure the US will say "fair play, you won".

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