to think that if you say, in a flimsy and ineffectual way, 'sweetie, darling, that's not very nice...'

[OhBuggerandArse]

...it's not bloody surprising if your child takes absolutely no notice of you and carries on throwing grit in other kids faces/walloping them/making nasty faces at them/pushing and shoving, day after day after day?

What on earth do people think is wrong with 'Oi, NO!' in a believeable voice?

(Fully acknowledge that somewhere else on the internet, maybe even here, somebody is probably writing AIBU to think that OhBugger is a horrible shouty mummy?)

[StayingDavidTennantsGirl]

I absolutely agree, OhBugger. I worked long and hard on developing the Look of Doom, and the tone of voice that says 'Do it now, OR ELSE!! They work on adults too!

[Meglet]

the funny thing is that some children do respond to the "sweetie, darling..." type of talk. I've witnessed it myself.

Mine only respond to full on Sgt Major type bellowing, even then it's a bit hit and miss.

[thegruffalosma]

I call DD sweetie when telling her off sometimes and do it in a calm voice but she knows if she carrys on doing whatever she is doing there will be consequences - removal of a toy, no tv etc. If she was adamant she was going to carry on I would remove her from the situation entirely so they are being unreasonable not to give any consequence for the bad behaviour imo.

[smokeyandthebanjo]

Mine responds to sweetie darling.

But then she doesn't throw grit/wallop/make nast faces/push shove.

[thegruffalosma]

Also meant to add that people who shout 'oi' like a fishwife repeatedly while their kids continue to misbehave are just as bad.

[OhBuggerandArse]

You're right of course, Meglet, but what I don't understand is why when it clearly isn't working it seems so difficult for some people to move on to the next weapon in the armoury, as it were.

And yes, continual ineffective oi is just as annoying. In fact maybe it's ineffectualness that's winding me up as much as the style of it?

[fgaaagh]

Mmm mine have generally responded better to the "even" tone and a strong look if something goes wrong. In fact, our oldest went through a very trying Kevin-type phase where a raised voice or a sharper word was exactly what the little blighter was after - keeping calmer and stating that punching your sister, kicking dirt onto the pavement, or tearing up an entire loaf of bread is "not nice" seemed to work better in the long run, overall, than a short sharp "OI! Stop it!" (no matter how tempting it is!!)

I put this down to the fact that the in laws use the short shoutey thing, but fail to go through with punishments... i suspect they've associated adults getting flustered with them "winning" in some way (but no punishment of their behaviour in the post) - - that's my theory. it could just be i was more convinced my tactic would work, rather than their grandparents tactic, so maybe i stuck at it for longer!

[fgaaagh]

"responded better to the "even" tone" = should have been "responded better to the "sweetie darling" even tone"

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

My SIL believes in reasoning and explaining things to her children. She never ticks off, she never disciplines or chastises them.

Not even when her child is peeling wallpaper off walls in other people's houses, or throwing stones at other children.

"Now TarquinMatthias mummywummy would like if you could maybe think about doing something else"

WTF is wrong with "stop that now" Said in SDTG's tone and with her Look of Doom

(which I used just prior to the Grip of Death where you take them by the arm, just at the wrist, to go round the corner where no one can see you out to another room and hiss at them in an angry tone have a discussion about behaviour)

[onceamai]

Firm voice - stern look never an "oi". However, DS now 16 can do a very good imitation of said stern look, usually when he knows he's being rather unreasonable - does it with a twinkle in his eye and lapses into a grin. Dilutes an argument in nano seconds be sure young mums your sins your once successful methods will come back to haunt you.

[OhBuggerandArse]

Hm, interesting about the long term thing, fgaagh. Do you think there's a difference between inside/outside the family environment, though? Trouble is that in the situation I'm thinking of it's all the other kids who are having to deal with the effects of the tactic, and I'm not sure it would help them to know that in a couple of years time (say) things will be better!

I suppose it's coming back to an idea that discipline is a performance in a way - to my mind it's as important for the pushee to know that the person who did it to them has been told off for it as for the person who did the pushing to be disciplined. But inside the family one's priorities might be more to do with getting one's own kid sorted... I dunno.

[Pinkjenny]

My ds does not respond to shouting at all. He does respond to a firm, 'Now that is not very kind, gently, there you go, good boy !'

He's a bit like a dog.

[thegruffalosma]

fuckme - in that situation dd would be disciplined in some way - she knows peeling wallpaper is wrong! She'd also be told that any more misbehaviour and she'd be going home or bed early or something if I couldn't go home for whatever reason. I do try not to shout though - can't say I never have - but I prefer not to and you don't need to to discipline effectively imo.

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

Oh I don't mean shouting thegruff, but SIL is totally fluffly silly voice tone - no deepening of tone or force behind her words iyswim?

[fgaaagh]

OhBuggerandArse, oh yes, I would hasten to add that if they were ever doing anything to annoy anyone else, or generally destructive, I would intervene with punishment.

E.g. he went through a phase of ripping up bread whenever he saw it on the side - tolerated (just) with warning of punishment at home, but if i was ever in a friend's house, he would be removed to the naughty step or taken home etc.

punching dealt with at home vs. randomly punching another child dealt with differently too, etc - and i would always make sure that anyone offended/slighted know that he's going to be punished.

there's no way i would tolerate some of the things i've seen parents allowing in public.

i guess what i'm saying is "use the home as training ground, but once the boundaries are overstepped outside, it's time to remove them from the situation".. you can't expect Joe Public or friends to tolerate too much bad behaviour whilst you train your kids to behave. that's why we didnt go out to restaurants with them until they were a few years out of the toddler stage - couldn't trust them to behave themselves, so it was a babysitter or leave it for another time.

it's not fair to inflict bad behaviour on other people - parents are the most understanding people in the world for their kids - not everyone shares their view!

I say this as someoen who loves our DCs, truly, but other people's kids I'm not someone who goes gaga over them

[OhBuggerandArse]

Yep, fuckme, that's exactly the voice I'm thinking of. No weight to it, you wouldn't use it in a meeting if you wanted to be taken seriously.

It always feels to me as if people doing that are frightened of upsetting their kid, but that might be a misreading?

[fgaaagh]

ripping wallpaper?

intervention definitely needed - apology to the host - whip them home and make sure they understand what they did was bad. but not shouting at the time.

i wouldn't risk putting them in that situation again until i know they've understood what they did wrong (not easy with very small children) or until I could keep a closer eye on them.

just like the restaurant example i gave, really

[thegruffalosma]

Oh yeah and I'd offer to pay for the damage obviously.

[OhBuggerandArse]

fgaagh, you sound like you were very on top of things - not like the situation I was thinking of at all. And fair play to you for keeping the shouting down - it's something I have to keep on (& keep on) working on.

[pregnantpause]

YANBU! I see this ALL THE TIME in a playgroup I attend. I am the ONLY mother there that actively disciplines my child when she is misbehaved. I adopt a low bark 'thats enough dd! stop or we will go home!'. All the other mothers offer their little sweeties and darling a simpering 'thats not nice' 'oh he doesnt mean to be nasty(aS errant child yanks another childs hair furiously)'
I'm all for explaining to children the reasoning behind rules and what is and is not acceptable behaviour, but imo those conversations arent going to be effective when you try to engage your dcs in a busy playground/party/insert any public place here, when they are already being naughty! Theres a time and a place.

[Butterbur]

You have to be authoritative. If you don't take charge, DCs will, and who wants that?

[thegruffalosma]

pregnantpause how old are the kids at your playgroup? Because I didn't discipline dd at all really until she could understand as I didn't see any point if she couldn't learn from it. I just kept a very close eye on her and removed her from any situations that arose. She never hit anyone but if she did she would have got a 'no' and lots of fuss for the injured child and I would have kept a closer eye on her. I would have felt more responsible than her for not keeping a close enough eye on her. There's no point trying to explain anything complex or punishing behaviour until 18 months at the earliest and it could be a lot later for some if their kids have language delay.

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

It was wallpaper in a very posh hotel where we were having a large family lunch. TarquinMatthias laughed at her.

that's the point at which I would have had mine in the Grip of Death and frogmarched them out to have words with them

He was almost 5.

[fuckmepinkandcallmerosie]

Actually, that's not true. Mine would never ever have dared do anything like that because they just knew by that stage what behaviour was acceptable.

[pregnantpause]

The youngest at playgroup is 20 months. but the majority (incl my dd) are about to turn 3. (i know as i have loads of birthday party invites).
And the mums neither discipline or remove them, and thi includes aggressive behaviour-pushing and throwing etc. It drives me mad, because i have to really stop myself from telling other peoples children off which I appreciate is almot always wrong.