scottish student fees(32 Posts)
With scottish students never having had to pay fees, do a higher proportion of 'poor' students apply than in england?
Or does it not really make a massive difference?
Genuine question, I have no idea....and wouldn't know where to look to find comparison data.
I studied in glasgow, started in 1998 (goodness i'm getting old) and i had to pay fees.
Admittedly it was only just over £1k a year but still had to pay.
I'm interested to see how the Scots will manage.
Will they be able to continue to keep their uni's fee free? Now England are charging up to £9k the pressure will be on them to either follow suit or publicly declare they won't (and how they will pay).
Already the English subsidise the Scots so it would be a bitter pill for English families to swallow when they have to fork out massive fees whilst their Scottish equivalents get a free pass.
I wish some would explain this to me.
where does Scotland get it's funds from?
does it get money from the English government?
(sorry if that is a hijack)
Yes, because we don't pay any taxes at all... . And Westminster is the uk government, not the English government.
Scottish MPs voted in the recent fees increase that applies in England but not Scotland. And now are going to charge £6k/year to english students going north to avoid the higher fees.
AgentProv. I take it then that you are unfamiliar with the Barnett formula? The taxes Scots pay go directly into the UK govt coffers and how much Scotland gets is determined by this rather unfair formula which was only ever intended to be temporary and in fact has no basis in law.
It's fairly complicated as you can imagine but as far as uni education goes, you'll find that for every fee paying student in England, an amount is transferred to Scotland, in effect subsidising their tuition.
In fact per-capita expenditure on services in England is 97% and in Scotland, 117%. In short, the English subsidise the Scots.
AgentProvocateur that isn't what I meant, but you kind of explain it, so all parts of UK pay taxes to the one goverment.
Personally, I do think fee payment differences in England, Wales and Scotland are hugely unfair. I don't see a real justification for it as such: my understanding of the reason behind it being how the Welsh Assembly /Scottish governement chooses to spend it's "pot".
IMO, items are, or should be, definied by need rather than by who-pays-in: e.g. life expectancy in Glasgow appalling, so higher NHS funding there - not becuase of where it is but because of need. If crime is higher in London, then there should be higher spending on policing there, (I think there already is but wouldn't swear to it!).
Having said that, the "who is a net payer of taxes and who is a beneficiary" actually ends up with the very few subsidising the majority - so a few of the very highest income - pay for the rest of us. It is possible to calculate averages but not very illumincating, particularly if you start faffing about with "ooh, who should pay rent for military /energy installations/ what about N Sea oil...etc etc etc" then it does tend to degenerate into meaningless rubbish.
I think we have a reciprocal fee agreement with most EU countries - I could be wrong though, but my understanding is that is the case, so we don't pay to study there, and they don't pay to study in Scotland. The same isn't true for England - Scottish students pay fees if they study in England/
In terms of whether no fees makes a difference, I don't know. I think there are a lot of drivers when it comes to poorer pupils going to university, and in the scale of it fees is a pretty minor one..
I just looked at the leavers destination info for a few schools. The school I went to (state school, outwith catchment in a very middle class area) has 46% of leavers going to higher education, and 34% to further education. By contrast, the school in my catchment when i was growing up (very poor area, entire catchment is a council estate) has 8% and 36% respectively.
What interests me is what do people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland miss out on to get things like free prescriptions and tutition fees paid for.
It seems grossly unfair that students from any other EU country pay the same rates as Scottish students whilst English students pay much more.
Just to clarify, Scottish students in England pay the same rates as English students and every other eu student. English students pay 'English' levels of fees in Scotland whilst all Scottish students and those from elsewhere in the eu pay nothing.
scotsgirl they are the type of figures i was thinking of!
as someone mentioned before though about scottish ministers voting on english matters and then seemingly voting differently on the same subject in scotland whats that about?
also i have wondered the same as thefurryone, what do english taxpayers get that the others dont-free prescriptions have to be paid for by someone dont they?
whatever happened to the UNITED kingdom?
Yeah, the voting system is a bit mad. Remember it isn't the same ministers though - different ministers in the Scottish parliament to Westminster.
I don't see how we could possibly have free fees in Scotland for English students though, when the same isn't true in the other direction. Scotland has a fraction of the universities that England does and has made a decision to subsidise higher education. If we did this for english students too, we would be utterly swamped and it would be totally unaffordable.
I don't agree with their being such a mismatch but I don't think blaming Scotland is the solution. There is no way we could afford to provide free education for English students.
The Scotland Act 1998 act states that certain things, referred to as reserved matters, will be dealt with by the Westminster Government including Defence, International Relations, Fiscal and Economic Policy, Drugs Law and Broadcasting.
Anything not mentioned as a specific reserved matter is automatically devolved to Scotland, including health, education, local government, Scots law and all other issues.
So the Scottish Government can spend its money however it sees fit in relation to these matters.
It chooses to subsidise university eduacation. That it the right of the Holyrood Parliament.
The differences in government policy we are seeing between Westminster and Holyrood are in essence because Scotland is a socialist country where the SNP and the Labour Party are the main parties and the Conservative party are a joke.
The Scots as a nation did not vote for the Tories. They were, once again, completely and totally annihilated at the ballot box. Yet we are still governed by them at Westminster.
lolabells - I studied in Glasgow, started in 1999, had to pay £1K for a year or 2 then fees were scrapped. I think 98-99 were the only 2 years who paid actually.
Scotland doesn't get free prescriptions!!
Riven- apaprenlty there's an EU law that prevents fees being charged to Eu non dom students. I assume that explains a lot of what happened with Welsh students too. £6k is still potentially cheaper than England no? Although I am not saying I agree with the EU thing- I do not.
Free presecritptions are Welsh; however having lived in both England and Wales what you win you lose out elsewhere. For example we have no regs on school meal quality so most mums I know entitled to free school meals choose not to take them as a classic menu seems to consider hot dog and fries, fish grill and fries, burger all OK in any one week.
not just that obviously- as a family with a few sn kids we have no support in palce, the hospital locally was so bad that maternity cases had to be refused due to danger to life of mother around the time my yongest was born 9thank goodness I had a booked HB!), there's no children's centres or anything like it even for the neediest of children- none of this SN Nursery stuff I read about with envy. Swings and roundabout and tbh I;d gladly pay half the prescription price we paid in England in exchange for access to a decent children's centre like the one I used to work in, or for ds2 to be able to access young carers within the next five years. or for ds2's literacy support (dyslexia, dyspraxia, possible ADD) nto to have been pulled in entirety.
Swings and roundabouts every step of the way.
Oh and the thing that came about on the Welsh fees thread was a misunderstanding that students wherever were treated as members of where they study: not so, it is the home LEA that funds or does not. I was funded in Wales by England as I applied from Somerset, but as we'e been here 5 years DH is now funded by Wales: that is why it is organised as it is.
That's what I was thinking Fanjo! We don't get any free prescriptions. I studied in Glasgow also, and anyone graduating in 2005 and 2006 had to pay £2k to be allowed to graduate. Something the Scottish government brought in, when the SNP came to power they scrapped it. So I think there will always be some sort of fee paying scheme coming and going in Scotland at some point. They like to spring these things on students.
Scotsgirl - but Scotland subsidises university for all other EU students (they are required to by European law).
As much as I think the union is a good thing, I'd prefer to see total independence than the current system.
Interestingly if that happened and Scotland were in the EU then English students would have the same fees as home students .
Yes, but other EU universities subsidise scottish students who go there. England doesn't! If you want subsidies to apply they have to go in both directions, surely?
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