Bad experience during PhD, due to start Postdoc and still unhappy

[purifymymind]

DB has just completed his PhD at a world renowned UK university in a STEM subject. He didn't have a good time, and almost left on a number of occasions. He said the issue was poor supervision. I'm not sure if this is unusual or not, but his supervisor didn't even turn up for his viva. He also didn't like the politics, which he felt was unique to the institution.

DP has got a postdoc starting soon in an EU country. It's his last attempt at trying to make a success of academia. However he is still feeling really unhappy and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and can offer some advice on how to pull through? I feel like he has been scarred by his PhD experience.

[ommmward]

If it was a UK PhD, then the supervisor is likely to go to the viva only if they think it will in some way be contentious and a witness would be valuable. For example, if the student is very weak, or if there are politics between supervisor and examiners, or between the examiners, or the PhD is so "out there" that the examiners might write it off unfairly.

[kirsty75005]

I'm an academic in STEM.

• One thing that jumps out at me: you don't mention your partners burning love of his subject. Is that just because you think it's obvious or is it because he doesn"t have one ? Your post seems to imply that his reason for wanting to cary on is sunk cost- he's already put so much into academia that he doesn"t feel he can walk away. If this impression is accurate, there's a reason it's called the sunk cost fallacy. My view: academia is a career where it is very hard to get a stable job, where salaries are typically low compared with the alternative and where you are constantly up against your limits. If you are incredibly passionate about your subject, it's the best job in the world. If not, the sacrifices are not worth it, and if he has a PhD in STEM from a very good university he will have options. That said, even if he decides to bail it would probably be worth his while continuning with the post doc but treating it as a period to think about what he wants to do and learn another language and culture rather than a preparation for an academic career.
  
  
• Assuming that the impression you gave was just an impression: it's normal that PhD should be a very tough moment and it's equally the case that uninvolved supervision will typically make this tougher. That said, once you are a postdoc you no longer have "supervision" as such so your DP probably needs to think about how he will get the guidance he needs once he's in a position where there is no senior member of staff officially responsible for him in the way an advisor is supposed to be responsible for their student.
  
  
• Did your DP have teaching duties as a PhD student? This can help a lot of people find their balance in this job (when your reseach hits a wall, at least you can make sure the teaching goes OK).

[purifymymind]

Ah ok, I didn't know that about UK viva. His viva was not contentious, he is a scholar at the uni, so his thesis was one of the best. But apparently, other supervisors went to their students Vivas at this particular uni.

[purifymymind]

He is very passionate about his subject, and arrived at the uni with one of the best scholarships available. He had some teaching duties early on in the PhD, but I remember he complained about students not often coming to tutorials.

I agree re sunk cost. He keeps mentioning the post doc as being do or die. On the basis that it is the perfect post doc: renowned uni for his field, working for a group head who won one of the most prestigious grants in the world, so there is a lot of money available. His thinking is that if he doesn't enjoy this postdoc, then he won't enjoy academia ever....

[MedSchoolRat]

Does he enjoy doing the work & the science?
I have a different experience from other MNers coz I have always felt nicely stimulated & challenged not badly paid or like I made big sacrifices. Does your DB have a vision what he should 'achieve' if he stays in academia? (I don't have any such vision which is perhaps why I am content). What types of job would he do instead if he leaves research?

Sounds very unlucky at his PhD Uni.. did he even make friends with other post-grads?? usually they form a mutual support community.

Not one of us supervisors turned up for my student's viva, oh dear. We all had prior work commitments. My poor student kind of fell apart, too, and I'm not sure why, but I think everyone gets driven a bit mad by their PhD, she just waited until morning of the viva.

[MedSchoolRat]

Xpost... He does sound rather perfectionist and has high expectations. Maybe he'll get what he wants or maybe nothing can measure up. Every job has a measure of tedium & annoying colleagues, after all.

[purifymymind]

I think he enjoys the work. I think he will be happy to just achieve a permanent position, but his ambition has always been to become a professor.

If he left academia, he would most likely go into data science or finance. He made lots of friends, very tellingly, every single PhD student from the group left academia this year after completing their PhD. He is the only one continuing in academia....

He is definitely a perfectionist unfortunately.

[bigkidsdidit]

Do you mean turn up to viva as in go in the room? That’s not done - but it is quite shocking if the supervisor wasn’t there on the day. Every viva I’ve ever seen (many, many) has had the supervisor waiting outside with champagne. A lot of supervisors are bad, unfortunately, and coupled with politics I can well imagine a toxic environment.

He sounds very driven. I used to be a bit like that until I realised a happy work life and slower pace were worth more than nature papers. He might come to this conclusion too, or not - some people remain mega driven for years.

I don’t know what I’m saying! I have sympathy. The post doc may be healing if it is a good work environment - but it sounds like he’s chosen another pressure cooker situation.

[MedSchoolRat]

Probably right now he's still in post-PhD madness so just settle down & see what the opportunities are like, before making any big decisions. Maybe he's so idealistic he'll be happiest going into teaching 6th form or another parallel career.

The cutting edge stuff in data science is mostly in academia, too (eg., MIT). Still get politics, big egos, silos. I know a good data private sector data science company where you don't have to wear a suit to work but you do need to be obsessive (the owner freely admits to himself being like that). Finance: they expect you to be work long hours motivated by greed. MoD, NHS, insurance companies also use data science, but can be lots of routine tedium in those jobs.

Silos = professors who create their own little fiefdoms (research groups) & actively discourage collaboration with perceived rivals, or even the guys in the lab next door. Maybe pushing their favourite theories almost aggressively, and elbowing hard anyone with rival theory. Creates a situation rife with risk of fraud.

'renowned uni for his field, working for a group head who won one of the most prestigious grants in the world" sounds exactly like a silo, pressure-cooker. Eg., Cambridge is full of intense silo'd labs in bio-chem-medical research. OP's brother might love it if he's treated as special, or he might feel chewed up & spat out.

At any Uni, the main job of professors is to get large research grants... and empire build. Never appealed to me... I'm sure Ur DB will find right way forward for him.

[purifymymind]

Supervisor didn't turn up at all, but he did arrange for a bottle of champagne to be given in his absence.

Why do you think he has chosen another pressure cooker situation?

[purifymymind]

Oh no re fiefdom. It could be exactly like that. The group head is very young, under 35 I believe. Very driven too. I doubt DB will be treated as special, as he was not the first choice postdoc. They actually offered first to someone else, but said person declined as he didn't want to work in that group after second thoughts. The group is also new and is being built by this group head using the grant. Group head has been at the uni for 2 years I believe.

[Samosaurus]

If it was a UK PhD, then the supervisor is likely to go to the viva only if they think...
This is simply not true! I am an academic and unless the student has requested it, a supervisor absolutely goes to the viva. I can understand why your DH has been scarred by his supervision, but he has got to remember he is going to a completely different institution. It’s good he has a plan b though, the UK systems churns out so many PhDs these days that only a handful stay in academia!

[ommmward]

It must be different cultures in different institutions. Certainly I've encountered a mixture, but would not expect to go to the viva of a very competent talented student. It is their moment to come out of the chrysalis as a fully fledged independent scholar; unless they actively want me there, I assume they don't want my apron strings at that point! (And, as an examiner, I've had the same experience. It's the less confident candidates, or those with more problematic dissertations, where the supervisor tends to be sitting quietly in the corner).

[bluebluezoo]

I’ve never heard of supervisors in vivas either.

Thinking about it, I’d have hated it. The advice given back in my day to get through the viva was always to remember you are the expert on your work. The examiners are very knowledgeable on the field generally, but only you know your work so intimately. It’s “defending your thesis”- they read it, and you answer all their questions.

It really gave me confidence as I figured if I made minor errors through nervousness it would likely not be picked up on. It wasn’t a marked exam with “right” answers.

My supervisor was probably the only other person in the world with the same, if not more, knowledge on my subject. If he’d have been there I’d have been worried he’d be able to pick up on mistakes easier, and would have been more of a “get the answers correct” scenario

I don’t even remember where my supervisor was on viva day.

[MedSchoolRat]

Why do you think he has chosen another pressure cooker situation?

"renowned" institutions & "most prestigious grants in the world," means pressure, OP. May see failure if they don't get paper(s) in Nature. Some labs openly encourage competition and league tables among the researchers (wrt publishing output). Main thing is knowing he'll get more support than pressure for what he'll be doing.

Young is very good, though. Keen on networking & may be amenable to being widely productive rather than put eggs in single basket. Keen to keep their good people, hopefully appreciate the value of relationships. One of the worst jobs I had was with 2 age 60+ very established professors. Their strategy was that we would publish nothing (for 5 yrs!!) and then try to get it all into Nature. The (single!) peer-review publication they actually got was in a minor journal. They were friendly with me but the 2 profs ended up slightly falling out.

Not all profs age 60+ are so blinkered. I now work with an even more established age 60+ prof who is satisfied to publish in some low prestige places. One of our most cited joint papers is in a journal with nominal impact factor = 4.2 (we're getting double that citation rate).

[bigkidsdidit]

I think ‘go to’ the viva is being interpreted as ‘sit in’ by some posters and ‘sit outside with fizz’ by others. Ime the first is not done but the second is - I appreciate fields and departments are different, though.

The second lab sounds a pressure cooker because of prestigious grants, driven Pi, new PI, lots of money, a need to prove themselves... it could be very high stress. Who knows, though

[impostersyndrome]

First of all, like the others I think there is some confusion over whether the supervisor chose not to sit in on the viva, or that the supervisor didn’t turn up at all to the start of the viva, which does seem unconventional to say the least. Put it this way, it’s really important that the supervisor is there both at the start and at the end to ensure everything is running smoothly and indeed to be within reach in case of any issues (and a decent person will be there to say some supportive words at the start ).

Now, to your main question: I would advise that he treats this as a fresh start, in fact to get a place in the current competitive market is a great compliment to his ability. But at same time also treat this as an opportunity to think through what he wants from his career. This is a point when he can be choosing to step off into a different career with relative ease. Certainly better than trying to do so than after several short-term contracts.

[purifymymind]

Thanks all. Spoke to DB today and he is now trying to get himself settled in his new town. He left it pretty late to move there, postdoc starts in a few days and he only just arrived. Wondering whether I should visit now or wait till he is settled, has accommodation etc...?

I'm a little worried about him. He is a lovely boy but I wonder whether he has taken too much on. He has been single for years now and all his peers (both in and out of academia) are quite settled with partners and have their support. He is single, but I know he was seeing someone for 6 months near his old university. I imagine that has now ended given he has left the UK, but I worry whether his all or nothing approach to academia is also affecting his ability to build a long term relationship. Any advice?

[purifymymind]

Thanks imposter. To clarify, the supervisor was nowhere near the university on the day of his viva.

[purifymymind]

I think he is quite clear on what he wants, I guess he is worried about whether or not he will achieve it. And whether that will mean many 'wasted ' years. Something he keeps mentioning is that he felt he has sacrificed a lot to stay in academia - comparatively better pay, his health (he works many stressful hours), relationships etc

[MoodLighting]

I think it's normal to have a huge anti climax after finishing. Encourage him to realise it isn't a failure if he leaves academia. Although most phds find alternative careers there is a sense that if you haven't got a lectureship you've failed. The good news is data science and finance are incredibly buoyant. Help him to understand he's got a good career ahead of him whatever happens.

[nopixelsfound]

I think it depends a lot on both field and your individual supervisor re:viva. Mine wasn't there at all but I knew several months in advance they couldn't be (scheduling was a real issue with the externals) and they've missed several others because they spend 75% of their time away from the university.

However know other supervisors in my field, even in the same department, are there for all their students vivas so if they missed one, it would really stick out.

If your DH is fresh out of PhD life, he's probably not recovered from the stress yet (it took me months!). I'd give the postdoc a try if it's in the field he wants to work in, I found the step from PhD to postdoc challenging for the first month or so but once I settled in and the PhD fog lifted I absolutely loved it and am so glad I went for it.

[nopixelsfound]

Sorry, not DH, DB ! I'm going to go with blaming autocorrect, or the heat :)

[kirsty75005]

'On the basis that it is the perfect post doc: renowned uni for his field, working for a group head who won one of the most prestigious grants in the world, so there is a lot of money available. His thinking is that if he doesn't enjoy this postdoc, then he won't enjoy academia ever....'

In my view, that might be the perfect post doc from an amibition point of view, but not from a point of view of enjoying academia. Very prestigious universities like this are typically competitive environments and being surrounded by ambitious, brillant obsessives is incredibly stimulating but not conducive to a good work-life balance. If you're worried about him on this point, keep in touch and be supportive.

If he's just finished his PhD it's very early to be worrying about what he's given up- it's not as if he was in his late thirties with a string of post docs behind him. The PhD will have taught him a lot and working abroad when you're young is a great experience whether or not you get the chance to carry on in that field.

Is he going all out for a stellar career or would he be happy with a lecturing job in a good but not exceptional university ?

Can you tell us any more about the area of study ?

[purifymymind]

Physics